Jump to content
  • Announcements

    • Willow

      Welcome to the forum!   09/17/2017

      Please come in from the rain and sit by the fire! We're happy you found us and hope you will feel at home here.  
Dr-David-Banner

NT's

Recommended Posts

Dr-David-Banner

I started to study NT's in a way I can't really help but pick up ideas. Sometimes contrasting NT's with autism helps me better understand autism. Here are some observations:
(1) NT's function collectively. Their survival depends upon the sharing of expertise and information. The entire society is based on teams, collaboration, enterprise, status, faculties.
(2) Education is socially based. NT's need classes, teachers and tutorials. We're meant to sit together in groups and learn through personal communication. Should we struggle to do so, we're suspected of either autism or "retardation".
(3) CRUCIAL. In my view NT's have a far lesser sense of self than an autist. NT's experience life through other people and give a vast chunk of their life to others. Family, partner, children and employers. Many autists however need to be alone to think and have space. More of their energy stays within.
(4) NT's are either high or low functioning. If they need to be low functioning to "fit in" they will adapt. I figure the reason people smoke or swear more is simply to be seen to act normal.
(5) NT's are eighty per cent intolerant and they can't help it. Anyone who doesn't seem to identify with their group, clan or team poses a threat to cohesion. At the highest level in academia, academics aren't supposed to depart from accepted custom. Even Tesla stated he'd been ridiculed by the establishment simply for going in fresh directions.
(6) Not sure if NT's actually exist as a stereotype. I figure lots of NT's have AS traits. In fact I figure NT's with a dash of autism often tend to be brilliant writers or actors or scientists.
(7) Why do NT's have to keep routines? How the heck do NT's manage to rise early just to perform duties.
(8) Do NT's prioritise physical work and productivity over inactive meditation? I'm told welders and engineers find employment far more than physics, philosophy or maths students.
(9) Do I dislike NT's? I think it's more the case I just don't identify with the neurotypical world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nesf

NTs should be written NTs and not NT's. NTs is the plural form, whereas NT's is the possessive form, meaning "of the NT", which is not what you are trying to say here.

Good luck with trying to fathom them out, in all of my 46 years of existence I never managed it yet.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

I guess subconsciously I may have had the idea of NT's group (but that would be singular) as opposed to Autists' group. I just typed it spontaneously.
I'm having a think over lots of issues. I was struggling to fathom differences between HFA and Asperger's. Ultimately though I think contrasting with the average NT accepted profile is a good way to compare autism. Moreover, I begin to suspect AS is relative and not static but in some ways this has already been accepted through the spectrum approach.

Edited by Dr-David-Banner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eli

When you're talking about NTs you're just talking about humans.  We are deviants of human beings.We're still human, but we deviate from the norm. And everything you listed is simply how humans have adapted to survive, the same as animals. Humans are simply pack animals, there's no mystery to them. They are as simple as creatures can get. They decorate themselves with all kinds of psychological and emotional debris, but they're just pack animals. We deviate from that. What is curious to me, is what if that deviation is simply the slow process of evolution? We don't live on the plains or the forest or the jungle, anymore. We don't really need a pack to survive, not necessarily. On the other hand, most deviations from a set norm is to do with a maladaptation, in the sense that we are not as well adapted to our environment. Maybe it is safer in numbers, at least for now. So my question is, are we the homosapiens to the neanderthals, or are we the just the deviants of the pack? For the most part, I don't give NTs much thought. They're simply not that interesting, and I've come to conclusion that I don't really care what they do or why they do it. It does not impact my life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

" or are we the just the deviants of the pack?"

The deviants of the pack, I think. I don't want to get overly scientific here but audio frequency waves are made up of peak amplitudes and minimum amplitudes. From the peaks and lows we get a root mean square average. And that's how evolution works. Society pans itself out as an average evolutionary step but this average falls a good way from the peaks. The peaks are the Mozarts, Beethovens, Darwins, Ghandis.
"They're simply not that interesting, and I've come to conclusion that I don't really care what they do or why they do it. It does not impact my life."
The problem is this: Society doesn't cater to autistics. It took me till now to realise even the education system isn't going to be too brilliant for autistic minds. I find so much is jigsawed together. I'm told I have to work in unison with other people and get up early every day to perform tasks (for objectives I can't fathom). Yet I don't want to work with other people just to aid in more mass production and chronic overpopulation. I also fail to see what NTs are trying to acheive or where they're going and, in turn, I'm called lazy, a drop-out or odd.
Sadly it does impact on my life because I'm constantly told to live life as NTs feel it should be lived but that's like trying to bang a circle in a square hole.
Added to that, people seem to have been reduced to task-performing robots who follow a standard performance schedule. Conversation where I live never goes beyond work, partners, new car, the dreaded Facebook and mobile phones. At times it gets stressful to feel so remote from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

My NT friends are all female and mothers. Pretty good mothers I'd say. I notice loads of differences between their neorotypical personality and my own autistic characteristic.
The girls basically live their lives through other human beings. This is totally different to being alone, studying data, thinking, dreaming and being self-dependent (on your own abilities). All day, the girls serve customers, chat, laugh and smoke during breaks. They go home to communal dwellings where there's no chance to be alone. They need to take time to chat to their partners or relatives and play with the kids.
We each pay a price. My friends are just too busy to ever do physics or play piano. Life is about sharing things with others.
As for me, I do have time to play piano or read books but it's a robotic life without shared empathy. One friend said she'd go insane being on her own at nights but I figure the quiet is good for your maths or physics. Still you have to ask is it simply happier to live as NTs do all together, rather than being like Mr Spock of the star ship Enterprise?
They say loners die much younger.
Lots of people on this site may not quite relate to this as many have families who support the autism situation. I guess as well not all those with AS are withdrawn or solitary but just struggle to hold onto the friends they have.
For me the NT World is about sharing, teams, school, clubs, projects, popularity, status and collective approaches. I view socialising as fundamental to NTs. I noticed too in Russia how academics actually have a kind of CV that shows which academy or department endorsed each period of study. I find it amusing the neurologists and psychologists I now communicate with feel you can't have a valid opinion without some recognised diploma to validate each step you take. I just figure the years of actually being autistic is the best teacher to have (plus a fresh, open mind).
That anyway is how I see NT World. I also see them as far more physically animated. Whereas I have low physical energy and like to just meditate and watch the wheels go round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sanctuary
11 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

We each pay a price. My friends are just too busy to ever do physics or play piano. Life is about sharing things with others.
As for me, I do have time to play piano or read books but it's a robotic life without shared empathy.

I think this is a very good way of putting things. Every type of lifestyle has costs but also benefits. Each type can seem quite alien to the other but neither is better or worse in general terms.

Edited by Sanctuary
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

Personally, I've been feeling I experienced part of my life conned by a massive cult.
In the beginning you believe what everybody else does has to be logical and right as everybody else can't be wrong. So you follow the system. The system says work hard and you'll prosper. If you want a better job, learn skills. Do as I did years ago and take a uni degree. We all felt at uni that a degree would be the gateway to "a career" but many of us ended up back in everyday jobs. Some just travelled and did TEFL abroad. So did I.
Now, I feel I can see the flaws and how the system pushed capital and profit to the forefront. It also massively emphasises social intelligence and not scientific intelligence or philosophy. By chance and nature's lot, I just totally lack the required social intelligence. As I shared in other posts I was recently kicked off another electronics forum as I don't flatter, humour, blindly follow or cosy up to "the chosen group leaders". Either I agree or I don't so I just state what I think. It's the same, though, in employment where often you "need to be in with someone" to rise up. I'm told this is especially true in banking.
The point is in a way I feel like I somehow got taken in by the concept if you follow the masses all will be well as surely so many people can't be led up the garden path?
Actually I relate totally to John Lennon's ideas expressed in Imagine and his other songs. "I hope some day you'll join us...." He was dreaming of different values, sharing, abandoning wars, living for today. I would say in later life Lennon felt just like I do although he was a billionaire by then and had the chance to just retreat from the forefront.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Eli

I think a lot of what NTs do, all the time-filling with friends and family and socializing that keeps them from more reflective activities like you is just a means of distraction. And it would potentially make them live longer because it's a busy life filled with denial. Denial about who they really are, the point of their existence,  all the thoughts their afraid to entertain.  It's not an ideal coping mechanism, but it's the one that comes naturally to them. Once, I wish it did for me, but it doesn't,  and faking it never lead to making it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidTheWitch

NTs happen to be crazy in my opinion? And I love how all you NTs reading will say how bad I am without noticing that due to I am part of a oppressed minority with the right to hate it's oppressor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

I ask myself to what degree autists are held back by an education system designed by NTs for NTs. Tonight I had a fairly rare mental block episode over something fairly rudimentary. Sometimes I see things differently and need to work out explanations that suit myself.
To give a wacky example: My textbooks will say 6 volts is a negative voltage to 12 volts. Yet I view it as simply a lesser voltage. Birds can perch on high voltage power cables since with no connection to the earth they are only polarised at positive. The negative polarity is missing so they are safe. Lightning too is drawn to earth and just a huge short circuit spark. Newton flew his kite in a storm, after all. Anyway I see it as 6 volts either negative or positive. Or a lower voltage than 12 volts but not negative. Maybe this is what they mean by literal thinking. I have to sort of redo the stuff I read to suit my own conceptions. Given I always look up to Einstein I wonder if he ever struggled with mental blocks or was it easy for him? He certainly did fail some basic exams and was considered a mediocre student. To be honest I never felt I had any talent for maths or sciences but I work hard and sweat blood. Often I think maybe having to work alone with no teachers and using NT books is why I struggle. NT students hate being confused but for me confusion is the teething pain before understanding. Each time shows I'd not understood too well in the first place.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sanctuary

I think mental blocks can affect anybody, no matter how talented or their learning environment. However I think they're even more likely to affect someone who is learning alone because they lack someone at the scene who can just help clarify a point of confusion or help them looks at things from a different perspective. It doesn't have to a teacher or "expert" and it doesn't need to be a large intervention but some assistance is helpful. Of course many learners struggle in conventional teaching / classroom situations and in one-to-one situations but on the whole some guidance from others is helpful.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

Sadly I was ridiculed by the majority on electrical engineering forums. Banned by two. I can now see more clearly that I learn more slowly and more analytically plus far more theoretically (less practical activity).
I do still think that to scoff at autistic students (as I encountered) and ridicule those who need to use different approaches is arrogant and totally the wrong attitude. I agree though self-tuition especially with autism can be harder. I still have elements of dyscalculia and had to increase time spent to every day.
I now see NTs as competition. It's my way vs the collective and the hierarchy, the pretence and reluctance to ever admit to not knowing something. To up the stakes I started not long ago to specialise in modulation and transmitter systems. I figure if you know how to design a transmitter, you will get better insight into the more generalised repair they discuss on those forums. I don't have a natural talent for electrics and physics but I do have good associative horizon and eye for detail. What I notice about NTs is they won't go in any new direction. They will learn as much systematic, mechanical proceedure as possible (over fifty years maybe), but lack imagination. The main problem as I see it is their boasting and assumption what was discovered between the twenties and sixties was a monopoly owned by experts. In fact it was evolution. Many discoveries are made by chance and even accidents. Even the principles of transistors were known long before they were invented.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
collectingrocks

I do find many NTs are superficial in their relationships whilst aspies like deep, meaningful relationships

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

I don't want to wind up being bitter and blaming NTs or looking down on "normal people". My gripe is with the current state of NT World which has become wholly based on capital. NT World promotes money-making and commerce above all other more rational values. Over population and destruction of the environment is a short fused time bomb.
I have to ask the question what are people trying to do? So many millions labouring daily for what objective? More children, cars, cities, factories and economics as some sort of Holy Grail.
It may well be NT World will at some point figure out technology will destroy industrial labour and jobs as a source of income. Clearly you can't just ignore how technology has replaced industrial labour over 30 years.
The achilles heel of NT World is people can't seem to unite and make big decisions to avert a crisis. They just keep pushing ahead and hope maybe other generations will act.
It's far from being the case NTs are stupid but sadly it's often the stupid ones that get into power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
DavidTheWitch

I must admit not all NTs fit the stereotype of being shallow. But a lot of them do fit the stereotype of being afraid of people who are different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

This is true. Even my friends are a bit afraid of me and one girl was half scared to death after plucking up courage to ask me to walk her home. I figured out if you developed differently and have lower emotions, people feel spooked by those differences. The NT friends I have are really nice and pretty much all of them suffer occasional anxiety. Of course I admit I am what you'd call in Spanish "morboso". This is like being a bit dark and mysterious. Friends don't like to hear about ghosts or paranormal so I try to not "creep them out" so to speak.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

Something finally clicked into place the other day. I just happened to notice one huge, fundamental difference between myself and NTs. It's this:
NTs totally approach learning as "systematic". They organize the process into sections, chapters, years, grades.
I don't process information this way. For me, there may be gaps in the process and there's no system at all.
I get bored with routines and systems so even studying a language my time could be spent doing anything. The net result is my progress is "staggered" and deceptive to measure. Yet at the end of the process the results emerge.
I think thiis is why the AS psychologists mistook autistic learning. They say autists simply accumulate vast amounts of facts and information yet with no genuine understanding of their subject. Yet, for me, the understanding isn't from A to B to C to D to F. Its D to F to B to C to A.
I already worked out NTs need collective input to gain understanding of a subject. Now I will throw in they need a system as well (despite the fact children learn language in no order at all but randomly).
So, I repeat. Why do NTs always try to convert autistic minds to work conventionally? Why not accept minorities aren't inferior but are wired differently? Although I guess NTs can't help it, they just assume their outlook is the only one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Nesf
9 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

They say autists simply accumulate vast amounts of facts and information yet with no genuine understanding of their subject.

They are wrong. They say this because when we talk, some of us are flat in tone and might not show any particular expression, we don't talk in an emotional way like they do, so they think we are robotic and without understanding.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sanctuary
11 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

So, I repeat. Why do NTs always try to convert autistic minds to work conventionally? Why not accept minorities aren't inferior but are wired differently? Although I guess NTs can't help it, they just assume their outlook is the only one.

In fairness to neurotypicals they often haven't been informed that someone they're dealing with is on the autistic spectrum as many people are either undiagnosed or choose not to declare their diagnosis. I'm sure some neurotypicals would be more supportive and open to different mindsets if they were informed about them. I'm also aware though that being open about autistic traits can lead to stereotyping and even discrimination so it's a difficult decision to make.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

Someone wrote an essay on how social interaction has become the dominant factor in the workplace. It outranks ability. In my opinion, social interpretations and value judgements are a false friend.
NTs prioritise social intelligence way too much in the current era. Too much reputation, status, opinion, general approval and not enough hard fact, logic and acceptance.
I fear too the widespread use of Social Media is very definitely replacing the analytical, fact-based standard. I get more wary of social media as the weeks pass because I rarely (if ever) see it used beyond chat, games, flea markets and so on. What it does I guess is promote the neurotypical mindset as predominant.
My NT friends don't have time to get too wrapped up in social media but I think the children are growing up with more exposure.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

I enjoy winding down late at night watching King Of The Hill (an animation series of the nineties). I noticed how some episodes totally reflect standard social realities. For example Khan has a nice house, a daughter, a wife and a company car. He clearly gets a great salary as he dresses smart and has the South East Asian company dedication mentality.
I would last maybe a week in Khan's job.
Hank Hill has a normal job in propane sales. His wife Peggy is a substitute teacher of Spanish (they have her speak Spanish really bad). Yes, I have been a teacher but felt totally undervalued and misunderstood. It made me too scared to teach due to criticisms or being expected to do the work for the students.
Amazingly the closest to autistic of the group Dale Gribble is unemployed and has a fixation for conspiracy theories. His wife is pretty hot and is getting her sex from John Redcorn - an American Indian aromatherapy free-lancer. I figured I could relate to John Redcorn a bit as he's a free spirit and does his own thing.
Apart from liking King Of The Hill, my point is in NT World everybody has to have a house, a wife, a lawn to mow, a career and routine to follow. Everything involves feedback from other people and being judged mostly on how you fit in or appear.
I always struggled too to be interested in careers, except I did enjoy teaching private classes abroad.
I am now going to watch King Of The Hill. Favourite episode was the one where Hank takes Peggy to see The Great Herrera, magician from Mexico, or maybe the one where Bobby gets a vegetarian girlfriend.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gone home
7 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

Dale Gribble is unemployed

He had a pest control business

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

NTs are far better than I am at surviving in this current environment where people are controlled by money. Or lack of. My NT friends through school, family and social conditioning are qualified to do real jobs. They know how to act, fit in, show interest, move quickly and be normal. They don't really need maths or physics or an ancient language to simply hold down a job and pay the bills.
Even so, NT World I see as a sinking ship. Today I was told a really nice girl from the library has quit to go into uni. My guess is maybe she got fed up with how libraries have now become shady locations for internet users or didn't feel safe. A lot of NTs do tend to move on as circumstances decline. I do tend to be sympathetic and help out where I can.
I am not wired for that kind of survival though. The working world is alien to me mostly and I tend not to worry about myself or try to get caught up in this idea of trying to climb higher than others. I lack the survival mentality that involves teaming up collectively. Maybe I have different coping mechanisms.
Where I live is now like a ghost town. It used to have a thriving industrial base and loads of jobs, posh shops and wealth. I still blame much of the decline on the internet and how it sapped the life out of initiative and inventiveness. Including the libraries where books disappeared and people just speak aloud on phones.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

How misguided it is to promote popularity over capability. I never quite noticed before how NTs rate social intelligence above raw ability. My goal became to cease being limited by opinions but instead work towards steady goals. Often opinion can be the undoing of self belief or it can lead to false feelings of entitlement. People will call you a success or failure due to image and not ability. Not sure why that is. This goes way back to Socrates and the sophists where Socrates was an outsider and the sophists admired and respected. Socrates though exposed the sophists as over-rated which led to his rejection. I guess the more modern Columbo was based on the same thing: A shabby, absent minded scruff who was always under-estimated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×