Jump to content
Dr-David-Banner

Internet Pack Mentality

Recommended Posts

Kroge
13 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

I need more time to comment in detail - perhaps later on. I should point out discrimination varies from country to country. Somebody else may have had different experiences in different countries. Based on my actual experience, however, I believe there there is such a thing as an AS spectrum personality. And I believe it has been wrongly and incorrectly represented as a defect. I base this on what I read from the studies of Hans Asperger in Austria during the 1930's. Clearly there was serious academic interest at the time for reasons I won't go into. Suffice it to say the autistic personality type concerns the processing of information, not externally, but inwardly. The difference is neurotypicals function in a different way by collective thinking. The education system is also geared to collective thinking, with systems and hierarchies and teachers and so forth. I used to think this system was a lot more effective than it actually is. Till you find scientific progress tended to come from those who were marginalised or even excluded. Just as one example a mathematician in Russia today who recently turned down an award because he felt it would be hypocritical. This person was a loner who studied outside of the classroom environment and evidently cold shouldered by the mainstream. He solved a puzzle in nanophysics nobody else could while living on an income of 40 dollars a month. Incidentally his decision to cut himself off in future from the science community that didn't take him seriously is understandable. I could quote other examples. Discrimination is, as I perceive it, the sidelining and exclusion of those who don't fit into a hierarchy or appear to shine in established environments. The best course is to recognise it and push on regardless. I never said I lose sleep over it but long stopped allowing the negative perceptions of autism to undermine reality.

You obviously have traumas related to persecution and this is fine. But if you're interesting in changing people's perception of you then you start with your perception of yourself first. If you perceive yourself as only a persecuted victim then that guess what other people will treat you as? Dwelling on the subject of persecution will just grant you the ability to see more and more persecution and since you're clearly aware of some subconscious mechanics at work here, you will know that your subconscious will just generate it over and over and reinforce it. You are not giving your brain the space it needs to develop through and beyond this fixed state of victimhood. Choosing to fixate on other people who are victims in a perceived similar way to you is just adding more fuel to the fantasy.

I live in the same country as you and I do not think it is that discriminatory. But like I said I've noticed people of all kinds who are absolutely hell-bent on seeing themselves as oppressed victims, regardless of how real it is, and I have no intention of being one of those people because quite frankly this state looks pathetic from the outside. All they do is create a fantasy which is fuelled and justified by complexes. I am not saying this is you, because I don't know you, but I am saying this is the fantasy life you are creating for yourself at this rate. It is your choice whether you want to fixate and generate victimhood, or if you choose another path.

You can stay in circular thinking all you want and cite autism as the reigning factor. No one will stop you and you will even be encouraged. And yes, you will even gain some pity and support, which will temporarily satisfy the need for acceptance and validation that you didn't get before. If this is what you want then you can have it. But if you want something different then you have to choose differently.

Know that this is nothing to do with whether you have or have not been persecuted, or are being persecuted. It's all to do with your perception. Those people in the Planet of the Apes movie set reacted to their perceptions too, without any sort of real trauma behind it. So you can see the logical bridge from that small example to how you can create an entire life based on one tiny perception.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

I think you are attributing views to me I didn't state. A persecution complex is a bit of a leap from what I actually put forward. I have experienced paranoia in some instances but I've also accurately perceived negative perceptions that weren't imaginations of paranoia. I don't have a persecution complex but I do believe a majority percentage of neurotypicals under-estimate people on the spectrum or indeed those with apparent mental health issues. Once I came to realise this as a reality, I began to change my whole self-perception. This started with a recognition that autism spectrum isn't a defect but a gulf between two different neurological types. The pressures of being on the minority side of that gulf inevitably leads to stress, exclusion and anxiety. To get to the practical point in question, I will do my level best to disregard the negative perceptions towards AS. Instead you can capitalise on its advantages. That is to divert all the emotional energy neurotypicals prioritise and focus on training the mind to function via logical deduction,. Above all capitalising on ways to solve complex problems without bias and social hierarchy getting in the way. Anyone who wishes to explore that theme may well enjoy the film Contact. Jodie Foster plays a scientist who is ridiculed by the mainstream and who refuses to abandon her principles. Other scientists then try to take credit for her research. Amazingly that is exactly what happened to the Russian mathematician I referred to earlier. So the question to be asked is: What matters to you most? Being accepted and praised by the majority on the basis of doing and saying what they want to hear? Or accepting your differences and exploring the possibilties autism can offer as an alternative to classroom hierarchy. And that with its emphasis on status and rank, pecking order and prestige.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

Returning to the race analogy, I always figured I understood Muhammad Ali's decision in the Sixties to reject the name Cassius Clay. Ali made the decision to embrace his African heritage and he concluded black people were not inferior in any way. There were great black musicians, scholars and athletes. His statement was that as the new heavyweight champion, he was no longer going to act and think in ways the social hierarchy expected. When Ali refused induction to fight in Vietnam, that took huge courage and principle. He was called a coward by people who would have lasted 0.5 second against Sonny Liston. Of course on his death recently he was viewed very differently. Ali's message always has been: Don't try to be what you aren't to please other people. Be who you are and have belief in your differences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

2 weeks ago I was in a shop talking to a Russian woman. I was asking stuff about advertising. Well, the woman had her daughter in the shop and she decided to involve her. At that point the daughter threw a tantrum and started to protest in Russian. Well, now my Russian comprehension is much better so the daughter obviously felt safe in the view I'd not be able to understand her. Unfortunately I did understand. The translation was as follows:"Mama, why must I get involved? That man is a complete idiot!" Then she approached and addressed me politely in English while I pretended I'd not understood. I wasn't hurt as, believe me, I got used to it. Also last week, an attractive lady with dark hair graduallly got into gear and began to make criticisms. I made a few jokes as I'm pretty hard to phase. Then her friend called me "a failure". Now, isn't that kind of weird? I mean, there are things a lot of NT's can I can't do. And there are things I can do that they can't do. Despite that, I would never dream of getting personal and advising people how I feel they ought to be. I don't lecture them they should learn to play guitar or take up a language. So, I'm baffled why so many of these people just give their advice and apply their own standards to anyone they deem below them. Neither would I ever call anyone "a failure". I don't think anyone is genuinely a failure as we all have skills to offer. There is a great song by John Lennon on Double Fantasy called Watching The Wheels. It's about how people would approach and offer advice. It runs, "People say I'm lazy, dreaming my life away. Well, they give me all kinds of advice, designed to enlighten me. When I say that I'm OK they look at me kind of strange. Surely you're not happy, man, you no longer play the game?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kroge

It still baffles me why it needs to be a matter of "neurotypical vs autistic". It's so limiting. It's so "us and them". You have at least a basic grasp of psychology and sociology so how does this "us and them" thing not ring alarm bells?

There are plenty of autistic people who are not like you. You have probably met some and not even known it. As long as you conceptualize it as an as "us and them" paradigm, and always identify strictly with one side, you will never get past it. Any effort you make to connect with others will be coloured by this perception, and likely already has been. Not every autistic person is an ostracized genius. Many, perhaps even most, are just normal people with a disorder (yes, a disorder, there is no question about this).

All I can do is repeat that it has nothing to do with whether you have or have not or continue to be persecuted. The point is you fixate on the idea so that idea is all you will see.

Highly generalizing stuff like "neurotypicals operate on emotional energy" just doesn't work in reality for reasons I'm fairly sure I explained reasonably. You have the capacity of mind to understand this but as usual I do not think you are really registering it. It was my choice to get involved knowing that, but now I will be stopping because I never like repeating myself. Hopefully you see something a bit more to the social world than just "us vs them" though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

A disorder? This is the official psychiatrist view. "Disorder" on what basis? What is your reference point for normality? Haven't you thought that running a DC appliance from an AC source or an AC appliance from a DC source doesn't work? Or put simply forcing a round circle into a square hole or square shape into a round hole is likewise counterproductive. Maybe a better direction to take is stress resulting from divergence of neurological thought process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

One thing I became aware of recently and simply never dawned on me before. These boats I encounter are riddled with poor design issues. Issues that beggar belief. And you know what? I can only conclude the whole boatbuilding industry is parasiting on these flaws. No wonder there is such a demand for welders. You'd think steel plate would be painted in anti oxidant all over before welding. And I was always baffled as to why you need covers on the stern. They always tend to leak and cost a fortune. The problem is lack of co-ordination between design and work, plus the emphasis on speed and deadines. Suffice it to say I had to dismantle an entire electrical circuit for the sake of one 16 amp surge fuse. This had blown and killed all power. It was located in the back of a 3000 watt inverter, jammed into a cupboard and tightly cabled in with 300 amp cable. The swearing I gave vent to when trying to get the inverter out was prolific. Some of the modern boats are well made, however. It tends to be the older ones that have issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
.......

I've seen crazy stuff like this too on boats. 

My friend is rebuilding his which was virtually new in the first place. The stuff put in by the experts is total rubbish compared to what he's replacing it with. He's not on the spectrum but is a very fussy master engineer who is NT. 

 

Ampther friend end is almost certainly on the spectrum almost destroyed his boat more than once! 

 

 

 

There's no doubt too that some companies design 'planned obsolescence' into thier products. :( 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

The best presumably NT engineer I know of is John C Payne. Where I differ from NT engineers is I'm narrower and more focused on smaller details. In fact I'm more electronic based. John did more troubleshooting and system installation. I liked his philosophy of a simpler electrical system. His was about 300 amp hour battery reserve and an 80 amp alternator. Today people are using double the amp hour and high current alternators. The batteries get pancake flat. The website is
I http://www.fishingandboats.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kroge
13 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

A disorder? This is the official psychiatrist view. "Disorder" on what basis? What is your reference point for normality? ... Maybe a better direction to take is stress resulting from divergence of neurological thought process.

Go out into the real (physical) world and meet as many autistic people as you can from as wide a range of society as you can. Quite simply this whole "autistic people are just different" thing only works on a thin band of the autistic population. I have repeated this roughly 3 times now. You will never understand this from an internet point of view because the internet is precisely where this whole movement is centralized. Forget what you read in articles, books or forums. They reflect ideas, not real life. Go out into the real world and meet as many autistic people as you can. Then I guarantee you will see it.

I don't buy into the concept of "disorder" personally. But I used that word because I thought using the word I really think would just create so many unnecessary ideas from people that they wouldn't bother to understand what I am actually saying*. That word is "defect" and I believe autism to be a defect. My evidence follows. Note that the word "objective" in this context is a metric I'm using based on the evolutionary concept that certain traits are either useful or not useful. 

- Autism is co-morbid with many other neuroligcal defects and that are absolutely defects: learning disabilities, epilepsy, and some others. An inconvenient truth that many prefer to ignore. The list is expansive.

- Autistic individuals exhibit objectively disabling traits that it would be absurd to say are "just different". I.e. poor motor co-ordination which is objectively an evolutionary disadvantage to the point of hazardous. Again, the list is expansive.

- Autistic people are very prone to stress and being overwhelmed, as you have noted. Again, an evolutionary hazard. Stress is a natural part of life and the inability to process it is extremely hazardous. The reason I choose not to contextualize this in terms like "Autistic people experience more hardship in life therefore more stress" is because it is a flawed perspective, based on the simplistic "autism/neurotypical" fantasy divide. Plenty of disadvantaged people exist in the world, and many of them without autism. Yet they can process their hardships fairly easily, whereas an autistic person will just get stuck. We are not the only people on Earth to experience high stress levels.

- Wide prevalence of digestive issues, low muscle tone, poor physical ability, etc.

- Extreme prevalence of rigidity. Again, an evolutionary hazard. Life is always changing and someone who cannot or will not adapt is in for a bad time. Most human problems, in my opinion, are because of a lack of ability to adapt.

- Social inability. You might raise your brow at this, because it's so fundamental to autism. But it's very clear that humanity, being a social species (meaning our survival is absolutely 100% dependant on our social cohesion). Therefore what do you call someone whose social cohesion abilities are diminished to such an extent? Defect.

Now, the model I use above is based on a very very simple but fundamental facet of evolution and obviously it won't sum up the entire human experience. But I feel this is the best way to arrive to a common grounding point. There are too many ridiculous theories about the "why" of autism so I feel it needs to be stripped down to its bare evolutionary basics and then built from there.

So yes, from this simple evolutionary point of view, we are defective and that is my opinion on it based on my experiences and evidences. You could argue a different case from a societal point of view (diversity is good) or some other view. But I don't care what people emotionally feel about how they are. A psychopath wouldn't call themselves defective or ill either but I would still call it how it is. I don't care how people feel about their conditions. My interest is only in seeing the greater truth in its greater context. I have no interest in bringing individualistic emotions into the equation because for me it is a matter of science, not of emotion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.