Jump to content
Dr-David-Banner

Internet Pack Mentality

Recommended Posts

Kroge

So note that I am not saying "you are defective therefore feel bad about yourself". This is not my interest. Feel however you want about yourself. The evidence remains what it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Gone away

@Kroge You present an intelligent perspective but I disagree with a few points which I accept as your points of view.

However, I don't agree with the term defective unless you include the whole of humanity and nature itself. There is no perfection in life and one could easily argue that the 'mythical neurotype' is defective. From an evolutionary point of view the business moguls are destroying the planet as well as humanities humanity ... not a smart evolutionary move. I see aspergers as a personal order rather than disorder. The contribution of disorder (upseting the order) comes from others. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

And your evidence has the very significant flaw I found in several essays written by psychologists. Obviously I had to consider this some time ago as I'm very aware of my own flaws. For example, the sudden bursts of anger when I lose stuff. And the OCD I used to have. Also the facial recognition issues. However, where you deviated from Hans Asperger's research is you didn't look at the social development of thinking and in this I have an advantage. I developed LA characteristics (low autism) in childhood due to impairment of learning. This was because my ability to follow group social and communicative ineraction was poor. I was taken to doctor's more than once due to poor co-ordination. Yet the root cause was the inward system I use to process information. A Russian writer recently quoted Kant who described thought as "dialogue with yourself". Now I am not going to go into stuff I researched personally but you need to consider how thought actually evolves and what it is. According to Tesla it bears some resemblance to electrical energy. That is, for every stimulus, there is a reaction. A very simple stimulus would be an insect settling on a Venus Fly Trap. The instantaneous response is the trap snaps shut. Did the plant think, "I must eat and kill the insect." No, not at that basic stage. Yet the principle makes sense. The human brain reacts to billions of stimulae and humans evolved collectively to collaborate in their thinking. The result of that leaves us with a common denominator. Also let us not forget Charles Darwin was on the autism spectrum and his views on evolution dealt a huge blow to creation theories. Likewise Tesla probably wasn't aspergic but he did have OCD and was very cranky and odd. Anyway I don't view the apparent negative AS traits as any grounds for calling it a disorder. It's a deviation and in evolutionary terms it would be a disaster if we all had it. So, on that line one thing that puzzles me is Einstein and other Jewish people considered to be autistic. No sign of any major depression, no sign of anxiety that held them back. Einstein did poorly in the classroom and failed his basic electrical engineering exam. His whole approach after that was as a solo act. He studied by himself while working as an accountant. He did have a small few of the negative traits but, in reality, with Einstein you got all the pluses of AS less the minuses. The same goes for many Jewish people with AS who seemed to be able to relate to the environment sufficiently to be highly successful and be social icons. That for me is odd as the negative traits pretty much crippled my social and career prospects. Still what I always advise with AS is to put all energy into something demanding, otherwise it will go into self destructive thinking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kroge
54 minutes ago, Going home said:

@Kroge You present an intelligent perspective but I disagree with a few points which I accept as your points of view.

However, I don't agree with the term defective unless you include the whole of humanity and nature itself. There is no perfection in life and one could easily argue that the 'mythical neurotype' is defective. From an evolutionary point of view the business moguls are destroying the planet as well as humanities humanity ... not a smart evolutionary move. I see aspergers as a personal order rather than disorder. The contribution of disorder (upseting the order) comes from others. 

The discussion about humanity at large is for another place. My views on this topic are very diverse but ultimately I find strength in truths and not in sentiments. I find no strength in being unwilling to acknowledge a defect as a defect. There is no reason at all that feelings cannot take evidence into account. In fact there will be no access to more developed intelligences until feelings can take into account evidence instead of creating it.

Really I am taking into account the whole so-called spectrum of autism. There's some seriously disabled autistic people out there who don't come on to forums to talk about being special and different. Because they can't. Because they're disabled. This is real life. The whole social model of disability cannot compensate for real life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kroge
53 minutes ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

And your evidence has the very significant flaw I found in several essays written by psychologists. Obviously I had to consider this some time ago as I'm very aware of my own flaws. For example, the sudden bursts of anger when I lose stuff. And the OCD I used to have. Also the facial recognition issues. However, where you deviated from Hans Asperger's research is you didn't look at the social development of thinking and in this I have an advantage. I developed LA characteristics (low autism) in childhood due to impairment of learning. This was because my ability to follow group social and communicative ineraction was poor. I was taken to doctor's more than once due to poor co-ordination. Yet the root cause was the inward system I use to process information. A Russian writer recently quoted Kant who described thought as "dialogue with yourself". Now I am not going to go into stuff I researched personally but you need to consider how thought actually evolves and what it is. According to Tesla it bears some resemblance to electrical energy. That is, for every stimulus, there is a reaction. A very simple stimulus would be an insect settling on a Venus Fly Trap. The instantaneous response is the trap snaps shut. Did the plant think, "I must eat and kill the insect." No, not at that basic stage. Yet the principle makes sense. The human brain reacts to billions of stimulae and humans evolved collectively to collaborate in their thinking. The result of that leaves us with a common denominator. Also let us not forget Charles Darwin was on the autism spectrum and his views on evolution dealt a huge blow to creation theories. Likewise Tesla probably wasn't aspergic but he did have OCD and was very cranky and odd. Anyway I don't view the apparent negative AS traits as any grounds for calling it a disorder. It's a deviation and in evolutionary terms it would be a disaster if we all had it. So, on that line one thing that puzzles me is Einstein and other Jewish people considered to be autistic. No sign of any major depression, no sign of anxiety that held them back. Einstein did poorly in the classroom and failed his basic electrical engineering exam. His whole approach after that was as a solo act. He studied by himself while working as an accountant. He did have a small few of the negative traits but, in reality, with Einstein you got all the pluses of AS less the minuses. The same goes for many Jewish people with AS who seemed to be able to relate to the environment sufficiently to be highly successful and be social icons. That for me is odd as the negative traits pretty much crippled my social and career prospects. Still what I always advise with AS is to put all energy into something demanding, otherwise it will go into self destructive thinking.

Sorry but how could you have read any understood even 10% of anything I've said and come to the conclusion that I have not factored in social development or thought whatsoever? Those inferences all over what I've been saying. Just like you know about engineering, I know what my stuff is based on, and I know it's solid. This just further evidences what I said at the beginning about your ability to listen to people. I tell you this with only value in mind; your listening skills are too poor to ever form a real connection with other people or what wavelength they're on. You can't even see their wavelength. You can go on all day about your own viewpoints and anecdotes and historical figures but that is precisely why you do not connect with others. You are not reciprocating communication. If you want to be heard and listened to, then guess where that starts? It starts with you getting out of your comfort zone and really listening to someone else and hearing what they're saying as opposed to what you think they're saying. It is for this reason I don't want to continue further because logically I will not put effort into something that will not be understood. I am not annoyed, just making a good decision.

I do not accept evidences based on the theoretical diagnoses of dead historical figures. They can be important to you, that's fine, but personally I see the evidences as weak and so I have no interest in speculating their neurology. Quite frankly I think it is silly to diagnose dead people when we still struggle to even diagnose living people.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

Simply I had far from finished addressing your other posts which is normal as I have to juggle around my schedule. One thing that does stand out to anyone who cares to backtrack on what's been discussed so far is it's you who is expressing emotion. I never do. You also express value opinions that you seem to base on your ideal of "fitting into the niche of social expectation." I have no issue with your view you think autism spectrum is a disorder. People are free to hold their own views. However I think you are looking at autism spectrum by itself and not in the context of a broader reference point. And I don't think you considered how neurotypicals are very much influenced by bias, environment, need to be respected and adherence to role models. Autistics very often are not. They very often either start from a blank sheet or focus totally on the subject matter. They are far less hampered by bias, preconceived ideas, status and institutions. Your other point made above with regard to many autistics being too ill to use internet forums. I was in that state for about 8 years and here I am now. I still have many issues but the depression and anxiety is mostly gone. I redirected all that energy into more positive areas.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

Diagnosing or trying to diagnose inventors and scientists does matter. My own conclusion is the great discoveries were not made by the neurotypical society that's forwarded as a standard. These discoveries weren't collectively worked out by Eaton scholars in a classroom.. They were made by misfits and oddballs and social outcasts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

On the main subject, I notice one very weird phenomenon on the tech sites. For some reason it only takes one person of high status to put forward a put-down and an avalanche will follow. Someone else in search of enhanced credibility will step in with a back-up. Gradually others will follow. There was a guy there who publically passed on a small circuit schematic which I decided to use. And it worked. Later when discussing the circuit, one guy jumped in and said it was all wrong. Next thing others jumped in to join the fracas. What stunned me was the guy whose diagram it originally was abandoned ship and left me to defend it. Much later after I just ceased activity there he awkwardly sort of apologised in private. I thought what a pity as it was his schematic and he should have defended it. Fortunately in the first incident that started this thread, someone did part from the mainstream view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kroge
2 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

Simply I had far from finished addressing your other posts which is normal as I have to juggle around my schedule. One thing that does stand out to anyone who cares to backtrack on what's been discussed so far is it's you who is expressing emotion. I never do. You also express value opinions that you seem to base on your ideal of "fitting into the niche of social expectation." I have no issue with your view you think autism spectrum is a disorder. People are free to hold their own views. However I think you are looking at autism spectrum by itself and not in the context of a broader reference point. And I don't think you considered how neurotypicals are very much influenced by bias, environment, need to be respected and adherence to role models. Autistics very often are not. They very often either start from a blank sheet or focus totally on the subject matter. They are far less hampered by bias, preconceived ideas, status and institutions. Your other point made above with regard to many autistics being too ill to use internet forums. I was in that state for about 8 years and here I am now. I still have many issues but the depression and anxiety is mostly gone. I redirected all that energy into more positive areas.

Still not listening but I will respond with less detail than I normally would to compensate:

- What does expressing emotion have to do with it... ? (this is rhetorical, I didn't really mention it).

- Nothing I said is about fitting in to social expectation. You are projecting this and it's simply not what I am saying. I cannot be any more direct yet the words I use seem to be nothing but air.  I am giving you pretty valuable feedback by being honest. Why do you think your threads often get such sparse replies? It's because people don't want to be honest with you about your poor listening skills. Or maybe I misunderstood the purpose of your posts and you don't want feedback. That's fine if so. Just let me know. I don't mind giving feedback but I'm beginning to see why so few other people are bothering. It's because you yourself don't bother to put in the effort to read what someone else is actually saying. I don't think even one of my points has gotten through without you distorting them to fit your own ideas so it basically looks like you're having an entirely different conversation. This could actually help you resolve your issues with people but... eh.

- I am looking at autism by itself in most cases but I am content in my ability to see things in the wider perspective, which I have demonstrated various times repeatedly already. Like I said, your area of expertise is engineering. Mine is psychology. It is confounding how you can repeatedly say I'm ignoring this or that when I'm clearly not.

- To say that only neurotypicals are influenced by bias, environment, need for respect, adherence to role models, etc. is absolutely null and void in very clear psychological terms. If you can walk, talk, speak and communicate on even basic levels then you are socialized as well. Everyone is. Someone who has not learned from socialization whatsoever would be an unfunctioning vegetable. This is basic, and I mean truly basic, developmental psychology. If you have no social ability at all then you have no ability to learn and you are unambiguously severely disabled and will require round-the-clock care for your whole life. You will not be able to speak or understand a single sentence, you won't understand the need for a toilet, you won't understand anything. If this is not you, then you have been socialized just like every other functioning person on Earth.

- No, autistic people do not start from a blank sheet, nor do they focus entirely on subject matter. It confounds me where these ideas come from but I see similar ideas expressed repeatedly by online autists. They are based on no research I have come across. Again, it is profoundly basic developmental psychology. I guess you just flatly ignored what I said about meeting REAL autistic people in life.

- I did not say too "ill", I said "disabled". Unambiguously disabled. Again... not listening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr-David-Banner

O.K. I am going to work through all of this point by point soon as I switch on the kettle. Before that just two points: I actually use a Blackberry at home and it's quite archaic. It would be much easier for me to quote each point for the benefit of all. Unfortunately my phone limits me and so I'm forced to go by memory. That's partly why I latch onto points then come back later. Secondly I am neither a qualified or professional electrical engineer. I'm self taught and use books that are decades old. I did study at uni many years ago but in time discovered classes just don't work for me. I now study maths, music, 2 foreign languages, mechanical engineering, history and elecrical engineering so the workload is high. Sometimes I don't switch off or come down as it were.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.