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Myrtonos

Are you really a capitalist?

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StarlessEclipse
1 hour ago, Myrtonos said:

According to Adam Smith that won't happen if profits are used to increase productivity.

How does using profit to increase productivity prevent the rich from accumulating vastly more than they need while the working classes are driven to destitution? Outsourcing labour to countries with practically non-existent worker protection laws so that goods can be manufactured twice as quickly for a fraction of the price is a step up in productivity, as is automation. Neither helps those who require an income to survive.

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Myrtonos

@StarlessEclipse, @Max000 and others who have posted here:

Basically, the richer a buyer is, the more their chosen vendor can be enriched because the vendor can sell more to them. If the transaction is voluntary, there is likely a net gain in wealth.

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StarlessEclipse
On 1/23/2019 at 8:34 AM, Myrtonos said:

@StarlessEclipse, @Max000 and others who have posted here:

Basically, the richer a buyer is, the more their chosen vendor can be enriched because the vendor can sell more to them. If the transaction is voluntary, there is likely a net gain in wealth.

I don't see how this relates to my question.

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Myrtonos

Adam Smith, so I've heard, did say that the rich could get richer without the poor getting poorer. You see the poor getting poorer means that the rich can't sell as much to the poor, and so can't be enriched as much.

To answer the question, you need to understand the law of supply and demand. But let me tell you that the price depends on supply and demand. The greater the supply, the cheaper and the greater the demand, the more expensive.

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Nesf
On 4/9/2019 at 11:08 AM, Myrtonos said:

You see the poor getting poorer means that the rich can't sell as much to the poor, and so can't be enriched as much.

Yes, they can. That's why credit cards were invented. Got no more money? No problem. Have a credit card, get a loan. Then become a debt slave for the rest of your life. So the rich can continue to get richer and the poor poorer. If it were really true that the rich cared about the poor having weatlh and plenty of money to maintain a decent standard of living, then there wouldn't be so many problems in society, but unfortunately, the reality is that the accumulation of wealth just leads to the desire for more wealth and the goal of most of the top 1% of rich people is not that the poor should have more wealth or better lives, just more consumer goods with no real value, and for them, the wealthy, to accumulate more wealth for themselves.

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Myrtonos

The standard of living of the poor wasn't any better in Adam Smith's time than it is today. And you said "Yes they can" but it is not clear who "they" is in this context. And it is not why credit cards were invented, it is why cheques were introduced, credit cards are much more recent. If you don't have enough cash, you have a cheque book and get a loan. But you have to pay interest if you have a loan for more than a certain amount of time. To understand this thing of a net gain in wealth, you need to understand the law of supply and demand.

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Scaly Piscine

Free market capitalism is based on the idea of a free market and open competition, where all transactions are a 'profit' for all parties. By profit I don't just mean financially. So if you imagine a product at a market. The factory that creates the product - all the people working there have chosen to taken a job in return for money, ie wages. The seller at the market buys their products from the factory - a mutually accepted trade of money for products, the factory wants money for their product and the seller wants products to sell. Then the consumer at the end chooses to buy the product from the market, presumably at a higher price than what the seller bought it for. All parts of the process are voluntary. Everyone in the cycle 'profits' by choosing to trade one thing for another - the end consumer is choosing to trade their money for a product, the seller trades goods for money, the workers trade labour and time for money, the factory trade money and products to make a profit and stay in business. In a free market environment with open competition each part of the process becomes more efficient over time. More efficiency means there's more value in the system. This translates into all sorts of things. But basically the society we have now is based on capitalism, all the innovations, comforts, technology, medical care, education, life expectancy - a relatively comfortable life averaging 80 years. Free market capitalism is one of the greatest ideas in human civilisation. Compared to the horrors in the past...


Go back only as far as the 20th century and you'll World Wars, you'll find 100 million plus died from socialism. Look at the history of the USSR, China, Cambodia, North Korea, Yugoslavia to name but a few. Socialism should have the same stigma as Nazism. It is a tyrannical, inefficient and disastrous system - whichever brand of socialism you choose. People who defend socialism will always say oh but that one was the wrong sort of socialism. The UK sees this revisionism with the Labour Party and Venezuela - their poster child until eating out of garbage cans became an everyday way of life whilst the president's daughter became a billionaire. 

Marxism particularly is an absolutely absurd ideology. Karl Marx himself was a total waste of space. He never paid his peasant housekeeper (who he had an affair with and a child he denied being the father of and never supported). He leeched off all his friends and family. Did not ever take up the chance to visit a factory, nor become one of the working class. He lived in a pigsty despite a middle class background and sponging off all those around him. One time he was the only person in the house with trousers because everything else had been pawned. He is talking about an economic system when he himself was economically illiterate. His ideology is like a fat man's diet book. His wife was utterly miserable. Two of their daughters killed themselves. 

The reason free market capitalism works and socialism does not is because of the free market aspect and the constant competition. It fits human psychology. We're selfish. We all look to 'profit' in some sense from everything we do. We want to buy things cheaper. We want better products. We want more money. Nothing wrong with any of these things, this is a driving force in almost everyone and capitalism uses this without relying heavily on altruism, honesty and impartiality which aren't that common. 

In a socialist system the means of production are government owned and controlled - ie factories and the like. Depending on the brand of socialism this control carries on further to some degree. All socialism tends to communism, which is totalitarian. Communism is total state control and ownership, to the point where all housing is state owned. The more decisions that rest with a government the more room for corruption there is - think about who decides who gets what? The government or civil servants have enormous power without having to work hard for it. Socialism and its way of thinking very quickly leads down a dangerous path.

If you look at the UK and Labour which is a Marxist party, that gives you an idea. So basically socialists pretend that if their ideology is implemented nobody will be poor and it will be a utopia. In Marxism the theory for free market capitalism is that as companies get bigger they make bigger profits by driving down wages, to the point where people are slaves and the people at the top just do nothing and get mega-rich. It's nonsense - everyone CHOOSES to be part of that system in free market capitalism so if one company pays less people will go work for a different company and get more money. You'll see this theme throughout socialism that if you're poor it's because of someone rich - so they'll solve this by taking money off the rich and giving it to the poor, until they're almost equal. This warped logic leads to scapegoating, usually Jews, bankers, the elite/rich. It's the same with all socialists. With a greatly reduced incentive to work you start an economic collapse - the rich/company bosses leave, output drops, less people work, tax income declines, welfare burden increases. Then the socialist rulers need to silence dissent, so they find scapegoats, they silence critics, install puppets in prominent positions, control the media, introduce more and more legislation which in itself harms the economy. Some will use the powers of the state to force people to work, in the past the government has dictated to its citizens what job they'll be doing - guess what happens if you refuse? Gulag time. 

There have been so many atrocities committed under socialism, because as it goes wrong it goes really, really wrong and the people cling onto power by any means necessary. Socialism helps to create the template to be dictatorial and control the citizens to remain in power. A right wing political ideology is typically free market capitalism, small state, low regulation, low taxes, free speech and encourages economic growth and entrepreneurship. Unfortunately the UK is all left of centre or far left at the moment and big trouble is brewing. The EU is struggling and getting a backlash because it's a very typical power hungry, dictatorial left wing movement with no checks or balances to its growing influence. Most people are generally for free market capitalism and centre or right wing politically, that's why the UK voted to leave despite Project Fear. Unfortunately UK politics is full of left-wingers masquerading as Conservatives... not least Treason May.    

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