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Dr-David-Banner

Could Elliot Rodger Have Been "Cured"?

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Dr-David-Banner

I had a friend on the spectrum exactly like Elliot Rodger and it also ended in dramatic bloodshed. Unlike Rodger, my friend tended to blame himself for not having a girlfriend. Whereas Rodger blamed others. He hated men because they could get girls and he hated girls for not being interested in him. Anyway, my friend was similar to Elliot as he also tried bodybuilding and constantly asked me why he couldn't get a girlfriend. Kind of pointless as I don't have a girlfriend either. Anyway my friend took his own life years ago. Actually I only type this as I noticed there's a morbid interest in republishing Rodger's bodybuilding com forum posts (where he was ridiculed). They now say this was a very bad place to visit for someone who had those serious issues. Still, let's be straight here: Guys with acute high functioning autism really struggle to find a partner. Period. Asperger himself states very many autistic psychopaths lead a life totally devoid of people and never marry. Think about the basic psychology here behind dating: Guys don't just "get" girlfriends. Girlfriends are mostly attracted to you if you are (1) popular, (2) belonging to a group or pack (3) employable and (4) a solid prospect to create a family. Sure, there are cases of females who will date offbeat or socially awkward guys although not so often. Therefore, Elliot Rodger very much needed explanations as to why he was (still a virgin) and that the problem actually affects many other autistic males. Many of these have been known to seriously self harm. Another big issue is harmful websites that destabilise psychologically troubled people. Rodger had joined a site (not bb com) where he was taught men had entitlement to "get hot chicks" so to be single was like an insult. In my view Rodger was far from being the only introvert to bottle up anger and go berserk. I think Mark Chapman was similar. In that latter case it was connected to John Lennon somehow being a fake. My.take on single "aspies"? Maybe go live somewhere like Japan where people may overlook your weirdness due to being a foreigner. Also to bear in mind most people who marry also may split up. Or in many cases be married as a breadwinner. At any rate the morbid fascination continues with Rodger's bodybuilding com posts and dating profiles being regurgigated.

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Dr-David-Banner

Not long ago I met a good looking Russian female. She was very intrigued I spoke her language. She actually told her mother about me in Moscow by phone. One night I got a text message from her asking me to pop round to the place where she worked. However my problem is I never have a clue how all these emotions work and what I'm supposed to do or say. When I did finally see her again she was very icy and frosty. A 180 degrees turn. So I just cut the connection totally. The simple reality is emotions leave me clueless and my safe bet is my autism is too severe to ever connect to anyone else. 

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Miss Chief

I came so close to reporting this thread, Elliot Rodger was a nasty, narsacistic, person who doesn't deserve to even be remembered let alone pitied. But I thought perhaps it would better to explain why this kind of rhetoric is so awful...

18 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

Girlfriends are mostly attracted to you if you are (1) popular, (2) belonging to a group or pack (3) employable and (4) a solid prospect to create a family. 

Utter rubbish.

You couldn't pay me go go out with (1), (2) & (4) in your example and (3) isn't important either, it's not a bad thing but it sure as hell isn't essential. 

Women are attracted to you if you have confidence (not arrogance though). That's it! Also that is most women. Of course you don't just want women to be attracted to you, you have to actually talk to them and ask them out and then you have to be able to keep them once you've got them but that comes down to personality and compatibility, if you get that far it's just a number game until you find someone you like and can put up with who likes and can put up with you.

Elliot Rogers was still a virgin because he was an arrogant, entitled, prick, he thought women owed him sex. Well no one owes anyone anything in this life, least of all sex.

I am getting really fed up with people talking about him like he is someone to be pitied... he is a murderer and if he hadn't done that, I imagine he would be a rapist by now. 

Incels always blame everyone else for why they aren't getting laid, when really it's their fault, they need to man up, grow a pair of balls and fake some confidence, do that for a while and it won't be fake anymore, every person on the planet had to go through that phase when we were young, for some reason Incels just never took the chance, of course they aren't going to get laid if they never so much as speak to women! So to answer your question, yes he could have been cured but not by a woman... only by him admitting that he needed to make some self improvement.

Also he did not have an ASD diagnosis and didn't really exhibit the symptoms of it:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywillingham/2014/05/30/elliot-rodger-didnt-have-autism-he-had-anger/#1df6b6b4b916
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/05/the-isla-vista-shooter-suffered-from-pathological-narcissism-not-autism/371768/

He did have a Narcissistic personality though so Psychopathy (or Anti-Social Personality Disorder as it is properly called now) was on the table. 

Why on earth you would want to be associated with such an infamous and nasty person I really don't know but I don't want to be.

19 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

autistic psychopaths

Please stop using that phrase these condition are not linked in any way and while Asperger may have thought they were 70+ years ago fortunately for us psychiatry, neurology, medicine and science in general has come a long way since then, (can you imagine if we still followed all the crap Freud came out with about wanting to sleep with your parents) here is an article explaining why these two conditions have nothing in common with each other:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/shadow-boxing/201402/aspergers-disorder-vs-psychopathy

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Dr-David-Banner

Yes, I do read criminal cases. The reason for this is I always seek facts above sparing feelings or being correct. The problem with psychology today is it contradicts itself repeatedly. if you argue Hans Asperger's work is dated you might as well include the V2 rocket research that also emerged from Germany. As I recall it became the cornerstone of the Apollo program. And having read Asperger's work I can vouch for the fact it's far more detailed and researched than what's available today. This is why I'm building a research website. As to E Rodger, as I said, he was very similar to someone I knew. He clearly had malignant narcissism as a comorbid condition. What's striking is many such people did lead semi normal lives. His father was in fact a Hollywood movie director. 

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Dr-David-Banner

Autistic psychopathy doesn't have anything to do with the modern term. It means autistic path of the mind. 

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Dr-David-Banner

Let's defuse any misunderstandings first. Although a huge number of Asperger males are genuinely unable to find partners, they very rarely become violent outwardly. My friend (who was similar to E. R. In many ways) just took his own life. So, what I'm saying is lots of autistic spectrum males have major dating issues. I include myself but sometimes I encounter even worse cases. There is one guy I know and suspect he has autism. His main problem is he's so polite and quiet, to the women I know he's seen as creepy. Even worse, he tends to stare as if looking through binoculars. This guy strikes me as clueless but harmless. What has always amazed me though is this: Men who may be genuinely violent (such as soccer hooligans), never give people the creeps even though  they may go on to physically abuse others. Both my female friends from Pakistan suffered abuse from former partners. Surely here the answer is people fear the unfamiliar more than the predictably aggressive? So my point? Miss Chief mentioned confidence but what kind? I am very confident in my own ability to do things but not socially confident. That is, I can't be socially confident if I lack social intelligence. Anyway, the morbid curiosity over Elliot Rodger just crossed my path when I saw on the news all his old threads were being dug out. Analysts were lining up to analyse his dating profiles and highlight the flaws maybe because there you have an extreme example of what not to do.

 

 

 

 

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Dr-David-Banner

I think that, yes, Elliot Rodger could have been treated and the whole violent meltdown prevented. To a certain extent I blame extremist websites that can be harmful for mentally unstable people. Let's face it, prior to all of this the US already had several highschool shootings. Then we've seen stuff like suicide cults. Heaven's Gate, for example. Even further back, The Charlie Manson cult where one very charismatic leader was able to manipulate a group of middle class followers. Anyway, watching the Elliot Rodger youtube videos I concluded: He seemed only to think about emotional and social issues. Nothing artistic or creative. If I were to spend all my time churning over why I'm so bad at social interaction it would screw me up. It's far healthier to just take the hand you were dealt and do the best you can. Also I think it's mega hard for Asperger males either to make friends or date. I recall one girl who used to totally ignore me so I assumed she had no interest whatsoever. A friend had to intervene and spell out said girl had a crush. She wanted me to date her. However, being autistic I assumed a girl fancies a guy only if she openly makes conversation. To put it this way: should a female actually like me nothing will happen unless it's verbally spelled out. I've known AS males who simply can't see when a female is flirting and they have no idea how to function where rules are not spelled out. As for me I am not socially shy with any female I may find attractive. I will talk openly and relaxed. However given I am so poor at more serious friendships I never take it seriously. 

 

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Peridot
1 hour ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

Also I think it's mega hard for Asperger males either to make friends or date. I recall one girl who used to totally ignore me so I assumed she had no interest whatsoever. A friend had to intervene and spell out said girl had a crush. She wanted me to date her. However, being autistic I assumed a girl fancies a guy only if she openly makes conversation. To put it this way: should a female actually like me nothing will happen unless it's verbally spelled out. I've known AS males who simply can't see when a female is flirting and they have no idea how to function where rules are not spelled out. As for me I am not socially shy with any female I may find attractive. I will talk openly and relaxed. However given I am so poor at more serious friendships I never take it seriously. 

 

I'm kind of the same way in that unless a woman comes up to me and says something along the lines of "Hi, I was wondering if you'd like to spend time together! :D " I just assume I've seen it wrong. It's so dangerous to assume too fast that someone is making advances. Sometime though it's obvious where the non verbal communication is unambiguous but most of the time there is always the possibility that e.g. someone is trying to trick me so that I'll end up responding so they've got me in a position where they can somehow attack me. Or that they are just being friendly. Or that they are on some kind of high in their own world and are not realizing how they come across to other people and so on.

Edited by Peridot

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Miss Chief
14 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

I recall one girl who used to totally ignore me so I assumed she had no interest whatsoever. A friend had to intervene and spell out said girl had a crush. She wanted me to date her. However, being autistic I assumed a girl fancies a guy only if she openly makes conversation. To put it this way: should a female actually like me nothing will happen unless it's verbally spelled out. I've known AS males who simply can't see when a female is flirting and they have no idea how to function where rules are not spelled out. As for me I am not socially shy with any female I may find attractive. I will talk openly and relaxed. However given I am so poor at more serious friendships I never take it seriously. 

This is another common misconception in the incel (not AS) community, incels seems to think that women throw themselves at men, I don't know any women that do that, they might give subtle clues but they expect men to do the chasing. Incels won't do this hence they never get laid.

12 hours ago, Peridot said:

I'm kind of the same way in that unless a woman comes up to me and says something along the lines of "Hi, I was wondering if you'd like to spend time together! :D " I just assume I've seen it wrong. It's so dangerous to assume too fast that someone is making advances. Sometime though it's obvious where the non verbal communication is unambiguous but most of the time there is always the possibility that e.g. someone is trying to trick me so that I'll end up responding so they've got me in a position where they can somehow attack me. Or that they are just being friendly. Or that they are on some kind of high in their own world and are not realizing how they come across to other people and so on.

It's odd cause I always had the opposite issue when I was younger, I wouldn't notice when someone I thought was a friend was actually hitting on me and this caused me no end of issues, this is probably exacerbated in my case because I mostly work and socialise with men. I think I am better at picking up on it now that I'm older but that's only because I've had so many bad experiences as a result of this that I've become almost paranoid about it.

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Dr-David-Banner

I know nothing about this Incels business which seems to be another new term?However I raised the E Rodger case partly because I suspect I encountered him on an AS site. Possibly it wasn't him but the posters told the guy he was coming across as socially threatening and narcissistic. I wasn't myself a member but just browsing. The posts desribed the poster  as very good looking but that girls just walked off after a few minutes. He said they preferred jerks and so forth and that it wasn't fair. The other posters were taken aback. There's a strong possibility it was E. R. When I watched the videos I was stunned. I never saw narcissism at that kind of level and he even addresses the viewers to ask what could it possibly be they didn't see in him.  I shudder to think how any female friends I have would react if I were to ask them if they agreed I was magnificent and the perfect catch.

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Dr-David-Banner

By the way I do not have anger or blame issues towards women nor seek to defend those who do. I did used to suffer total bewilderment as to why I was excluded from normal friendships but my reaction was to just withdraw. It took me a long time to figure out how mating actually works and then in time I stopped blaming myself. And I never blamed others. It just made me feel isolated. For me the whole thing runs deeper than just relationships. It spirals out from employment and status and stability. It's pointless blaming others but regardless many autists lack social intelligence. For me even serving customers in a shop would be like nuclear physics. 

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Dr-David-Banner

Off topic and onto dating per se, guys with more severe AS will struggle to react to or interpret flirting. They have impairment of non verbal language. They will not understand facial expressions or social norms. In the case of my best friend he put it all down to his nose and insisted on cosmetic surgery. His psychologist felt this was a mistake. Of course now I could explain to him that dating requires instinctive, non verbal skills autists lack. To me dating is rooted in social terrain and have you ever noticed how in films like Karate Kid, the crisis in dating is caused by the apparent social shortcomings of the hero. That is a skinny guy on a bike ends up dating a cheerleader but her friends think he's a bad choice. To finally win the girl he winds up needing to win the All Valley Karate tournament. 

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Miss Chief
7 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

I know nothing about this Incels business which seems to be another new term?

Well Elliot Rodger is considered to be the first Incel, in actuality the term was originally coined by a woman but the term has been taken over by people who follow Elliot Rodger's point of view, they often use his 'manifesto' as a guide.

6 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

I did used to suffer total bewilderment as to why I was excluded from normal friendships but my reaction was to just withdraw. 

 

7 hours ago, Dr-David-Banner said:

The posts desribed the poster  as very good looking but that girls just walked off after a few minutes. He said they preferred jerks and so forth and that it wasn't fair. 

That pretty much describes Incels, the term stands for INvoluntarily CELibate and most of the people who identify this way believe they are entitled to sex, they think they are 'nice guys' and women are shallow gold diggers who would rather be with badly behaved men who are successful or popular or good looking than someone with a nice personality, they hate women and sexually successful men and they blame women for why they aren't getting laid, most of them do not accept that it is their fault or that they have the power to change their situation. They also don't believe it is possible for a woman to be an Incel even though the term was initially coined by a woman.

Elliot Rodger was unlikely to be on an AS forum since he wasn't diagnosed with it but there are a lot of incels out there and some of them are from the AS community.

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Dr-David-Banner

I am told he was diagnosed with HFA.. The debates on his diagnosis are "hot" and in conflict. Lots of debate on Wrong Planet. 

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Dr-David-Banner

As you can see, psychologists seem to frequently disagree:

"Mr. Rodger’s mother, Li Chin, filed an affidavit describing Elliot as a “high-functioning autistic child,” and said she needed more child support to care for him. His father, Peter Rodger, countered with a Beverly Hills doctor, Stephen M. Scappa, who challenged that diagnosis, saying it failed to acknowledge the possibility of “depression or anxiety.” Dr. Scappa said that Elliot, almost 8 at the time, should be sent to a child psychiatrist for more examination and treatment."

 

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Miss Chief

The problem with your evidence is that in the US it's common for people to 'exaggerate' medical reports to help with court cases and child/spousal support claims. The fact is that there is no diagnosis on record for him as stated in the articles I linked originally.

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TheWizardofCalculus
On 7/5/2018 at 7:00 PM, Dr-David-Banner said:

I had a friend on the spectrum exactly like Elliot Rodger and it also ended in dramatic bloodshed. Unlike Rodger, my friend tended to blame himself for not having a girlfriend. Whereas Rodger blamed others. He hated men because they could get girls and he hated girls for not being interested in him. Anyway, my friend was similar to Elliot as he also tried bodybuilding and constantly asked me why he couldn't get a girlfriend. [...]

Could Eliot Roger have been cured?

Depends on how you mean it.  Cured of being a sack of shit?  Probably.  Different support system, different interactions, he might have been a different person.  Or he might have always been a narcissistic piece of shit and nothing would cure him of that.  We'll never know now.

I think a better question might be in how to address hormones, angst, depression, insecurities, and ASD in teenagers.  There's definitely something we can do about that.

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Dr-David-Banner

"One might expect from much that has been said so far that social
integration of autistic people is extremely difficult if not impossible. After
all, we have pointed out that the essential feature of the condition is a
disturbance of adaptation to the social environment. This bleak expecta-
tion, however, is borne out only in a minority of cases and, in particular,
almost exclusively in those people with considerable intellectual retardation
in addition to autism.

The fate of the latter cases is often very sad. At best they may get into a
low-level odd job, often only on a temporary basis. In the less favourable
cases, they roam the streets as 'originals', grotesque and dilapidated, talking
loudly to themselves or unconcernedly to passers-by as autistic individuals
would. They are taunted by urchins and react to this with wild but
ineffectual outbursts.


This is not so with intellectually intact autistic individuals, and in
particular those of above-average intelligence. Of course, in adulthood too
their relationships to others are as disturbed as they are in childhood when
they produce the same characteristic conflicts." (Hans Asperger)

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Dr-David-Banner

Not that, E. R. didn't have various co-morbid conditions and an overall cocktail of experiences and influences that pushed him towards destruction.

Off-topic but after all it seems you can also access Hans Asperger's work in English. I only had it in Russian but, glad to say, it is indeed available to read in English.

https://archive.org/stream/ChildAndAdolescentPsychology/Children%20&%20adolescents/Autism%20and%20asperger/2008%20-%20Autism%20and%20Asperger%20syndrome%20-%20Frith_djvu.txt

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Dr-David-Banner

The thinking behind this question I asked is what on earth was the psychologist doing? If an individual develops anti social symptoms that places others in potential danger, then steps have to be taken. Yet here several alarming videos were placed on YouTube. As to effective treatment why not? My take on this is we are programmed to think we must have a career, friends and marry. And then have children. The snag is with very acute Asperger Syndrome you are simply unable to pass through this process. Marriage and work depend upon successful interpretation of social norms. If you markedly say and do the wrong things and become an outsider, you either end up very isolated or maybe homeless - worst case scenario. I think though that if you learn there's a solid reason behind all of it, that helps a lot. I don't mean using AS as an excuse - just accepting trying to be remotely normal is tough going. I myself only have one relatively close female friend and there the bond is she's not fully NT and they have autism (high-functioning) in the family. I have no idea if I ought to flirt with her, how to flirt or if it's simply the autism issue that we have in common. I am totally clueless. Really I just had to accept with the AS I have curses and blessings. However those who feel obligated to compete and live up to expectations of being a winner and popular may become depressed and later maybe angry and even unstable. Just the same as relationships you might as well add employment, family and friendships to the list. 

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