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Myrtonos

Bring in @Miss Chief , she has mentioned that were free hosting options back then.

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Miss Chief
On 3/11/2019 at 10:22 PM, Myrtonos said:

Bring in @Miss Chief , she has mentioned that were free hosting options back then.

What is it you want to know?

Way back when you usually got free hosting with your ISP, although back then you didn't tend to stick with your ISP for more than a month (that was when things got more expensive, the dial up rates would go up, so you would sign up for the introductory offer then cancel it at the end of the month and switch to another ISP). However, the account you made would usually stay active.

Obviously for email you would use Hotmail (that was the first free web based email that you could access from anywhere online, they launched in 1996) although you never really lost the dial up accounts you created but some of them would only work if you tweaked your settings so it looked like you were using their dial up. 

One of the nice things was you used to be able to right click and view source and you could learn HTML by copying the source and fiddling with it, if you saw something you liked you could learn how to do it for yourself just by doing that but people tend to protect their code these days... not really sure why, it's not like you own the code, that would be like saying you own a mathematical equation. You could always tell when someone had used a program to create their website as the code would be such a mess! 

There were lost of free website hosting options back then, literally tons of them, barely anything was paid for online back then... there just weren't enough people into the internet, some people were even scared of the idea of the internet and governments definitely wanted more control over it. I keep wondering what happened to the Black Ribbon movement, I wonder if they just migrated to the dark web.

There still are lots of free hosting options for small sites with low bandwidth usage. Amazon do a range of free hosting packages (called AWS) and then there are places like FreeHosting. You can of course create and run a subreddit. Since you keep mentioning Blogs there are sites like WordPress. If you are looking to create a community there are sites like shivtr & enjin although they are aimed mostly at the gaming community but there is nothing to stop you using them for other stuff.

Not really sure what you are specifically asking about/for so I will leave it at that 🙂

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Myrtonos
17 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Way back when you usually got free hosting with your ISP, although back then you didn't tend to stick with your ISP for more than a month (that was when things got more expensive, the dial up rates would go up, so you would sign up for the introductory offer then cancel it at the end of the month and switch to another ISP). However, the account you made would usually stay active.

If I.S.P based email addresses are not considered free, then surely I.S.P based hosting isn't free either, free seems to mean more than just no charge.

17 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Obviously for email you would use Hotmail (that was the first free web based email that you could access from anywhere online, they launched in 1996) although you never really lost the dial up accounts you created but some of them would only work if you tweaked your settings so it looked like you were using their dial up. 

Hotmail did not yet exist when GeoCities was founded, that was in 1994. And there was a time when dial-up connections were all there were, as far as I know, the term dial-up wasn't in use back then. Until 1996, I.S.P based email addresses were probably all there were unless there were work and university ones. As far as I know, non-free email addresses were more common than Hotmail ones throughout the 1990s, and they still seem to be the best default. Webmail is for those who have no other email address or, for some reason, can't access their I.S.P based email account.

17 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

There were lost of free website hosting options back then, literally tons of them, barely anything was paid for online back then... there just weren't enough people into the internet, some people were even scared of the idea of the internet and governments definitely wanted more control over it. I keep wondering what happened to the Black Ribbon movement, I wonder if they just migrated to the dark web.

Not before 1994. Do you mean there weren't enough people into the web? Remember, the internet is not just the web.

17 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

One of the nice things was you used to be able to right click and view source and you could learn HTML by copying the source and fiddling with it, if you saw something you liked you could learn how to do it for yourself just by doing that but people tend to protect their code these days... not really sure why, it's not like you own the code, that would be like saying you own a mathematical equation. You could always tell when someone had used a program to create their website as the code would be such a mess! 

I can remember viewing source, in fact, I can view the source of this page right now, just in the way you say you used to be able to do.

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Miss Chief
On 3/15/2019 at 10:20 AM, Myrtonos said:

If I.S.P based email addresses are not considered free, then surely I.S.P based hosting isn't free either, free seems to mean more than just no charge.

Who says they aren't free? Perhaps these days you might worry about data gathering but that wasn't really a concern in the 90's. Back then you paid for the call, not a monthly subscription fee and when you created an account you got an email address (usually your name or a username of your choosing @ISP.com) and a website address (this would be the same name/username as your email address at the end of your ISP's website for example http://www.ISP.com/username). I don't really know what you mean by it isn't really free, like I said they weren't gathering user data back then, they didn't know it was valuable to do so or what to do with the results. Obviously these days it's different, although these days I don't really know anyone who uses their ISP provided email address.

On 3/15/2019 at 10:20 AM, Myrtonos said:

Hotmail did not yet exist when GeoCities was founded, that was in 1994. And there was a time when dial-up connections were all there were, as far as I know, the term dial-up wasn't in use back then. Until 1996, I.S.P based email addresses were probably all there were unless there were work and university ones. As far as I know, non-free email addresses were more common than Hotmail ones throughout the 1990s, and they still seem to be the best default. Webmail is for those who have no other email address or, for some reason, can't access their I.S.P based email account.

The term dial-up was in use before alternatives were available, I worked at an ISP which was the first ISP in the UK to offer an 0800 dial up service (free number), it was also the first ISP in the UK to offer broadband.

Hotmail was launched in 1996 an it got over 12 million users in the first 18 months, I signed up for it in 96 which was while I was at college, it was a great solution to a problem that existed at the time, young people like me were constantly switching dial up providers to get the cheapest/introductory deals, the only constant email address we had was a school/college or employer one and not only did you have to be at school/work to access that it also wasn't a permanent solution since you aren't there forever, also school email addresses were bloody awful back then, mine had something like 3 letters and 12 numbers in it, I'm pretty sure it was randomly generated, it certainly wasn't my student number or my initials and it didn't include my name or anything useful to identify me. What's more it wasn't @college.ac.uk either, it was presumably the colleges institution number issues by the government so it was something like @gower96454.ac.uk so all in my email was something like agj75395185264@gower96454.ac.uk of course there was a student directory that teachers/students could look up but to give it to friends that weren't at my college was a nightmare.

Bear in mind the college didn't have a website back then, the internet wasn't really mainstream, it was just geeks who who were using it, I had been using it since 93/94 mainly when I visited my dad back then as he had it, it was at least 95 before I convinced my mother to let me do the 1 month intro thing, and even then she wouldn't let me do it all the time... you had to have a credit card to sign up so I couldn't do it without her permission. My school didn't have internet or email at all.

People (certainly not young people) didn't tend to worry about things like data gathering back then, hell I'm not sure I even inputted my actual details when I signed up for hotmail, I almost certainly made them up on the spot, iirc hotmail made its money through advertising direct to it's users, this was acceptable in my book as you really were getting something that you couldn't get elsewhere, a permanent email address that you could keep and take with you no matter who your ISP/school/employer was. Plus if I'm honest ads have never really bothered me I just ignore the banner or whatever, this was of course before the days of pop up ads and embedded ads in media... hell this was before the days of consumable media online, it was annoying if someone so much as uploaded a big photo online cause that would take ages to load, they actually updated the protocols to load text before pictures in an attempt to overcome this but you were supposed to upload a thumbnail and then if people wanted to they could click it to get the full sized image. Even later on when photos and gifs were becoming more popular, it tended to be the less savoury sites that employed things like popups and stuff and stuff, these would be the porn or crack sites.

Now I did buy a domain in the early 2000's and I still have it and use it for email (I actually own 3 domains) but to be honest these days I tend to use gmail for friends and family, this is because I use android and so I have to have a gmail account and while I can and do access all my domain emails from my phone, the fact of the matter is that I get rather a lot of email on those accounts, I've had them a long time and I get a lot of newsletters etc where as I get maybe 4 spam mails a year in gmail and they don't even appear in my inbox, I don't get any newsletters or advertising or even account mails except from Google (and they're pretty rare) so if I have a mail in gmail I know it is either from Google or it's from someone I want to hear from (i.e. a friend/family member).

The reason I bring up Google is because this is an example of something that isn't truly free, I assume this is what you meant about Hotmail but back then they didn't know what they do now, these days, YOU are the product, your data is valuable, what you think and do is valuable, and Google has access to a shocking amount of information from it's customers, (as does Apple for theirs), as an Android and Chrome user, Google knows most stuff about me, they know where I go, they can probably make a good educated guess at what I do in said places, they know who I contact either by phone/email or even in person, they know what I look up online, they can probably make a good educated guess about what my interests and even my values are.

I wasn't worried by the Facebook/Cambridge Analytica data sharing at all, I do a pretty good job of checking and keeping my permissions up to date so I'm reasonably sure I wasn't targeted by that system but I'm not sure my data would have actually been all that helpful even if I was, I don't really use FB much, mostly I wish people happy birthday, when I do post it's either because I find something amusing (this does not mean I necessarily agree with it) or it's because something has annoyed/irritated me (again this doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with it), hell sometimes when I'm bored I will post something I outright disagree with just to see if I can start a debate, so I am not sure they would be able to establish much more than; that I am generally liberal and have a sense of humour.

However, I would be concerned by something similar thing happening with Google, fortunately Google not only understand the value of this data they actually use it (how do you think their AI is one of the best in the world), Google would never give away access to this, they might have offered the professor a job in their R&D department but that is the only way he could have accessed their data. 

On 3/15/2019 at 10:20 AM, Myrtonos said:

Not before 1994. Do you mean there weren't enough people into the web? Remember, the internet is not just the web.

You know comments like that are why I tend to avoid threads that you post in, even when you try to bring me into them by mentioning me, you are well aware that I know about computers and the internet and have worked in those industries and yet you say something that can only be intended to be condescending and argumentative...

Of course the internet and the web are different things, the web specifically refers to the world wide web ergo websites (which is what you were talking about). Email is not the web for example, nether are online games or chat programs. You need the internet in order to access the web though. No I don't mean there weren't enough people into the web. I mean there weren't enough people into the internet as a whole. It was just geeks. However, you were talking specifically about websites and hosting so of course that is specifically the web (which is of course part of the internet). You should remember that dial up internet was only introduced in the UK in 92. We are not talking about before ISP's were available, when you could dial into a specific server/service, we are talking about after ISP's became a consumer product (which was 92 in the UK). As I said above my first use of an ISP was in 93 or 94. As I also said in my original post most stuff was available for free online at that time, the idea of paying for online services went against the idea of the internet at that time.

On 3/15/2019 at 10:20 AM, Myrtonos said:

I can remember viewing source, in fact, I can view the source of this page right now, just in the way you say you used to be able to do.

You can still view source on some sites now, although many block you from doing so and it was very common to block source for a long time, it isn't the browser that prevents you, it's the site itself. In the same way that you can't Right Click and Copy/Save some photos online. It was such a big issue for so long that people even came up with ways around it (example here). Some browsers also allow you to inspect elements, for example pressing F12 in Chrome will show you the that on any site (you might need to be in developer mode for this to work).

Although these days viewing source or elements isn't that helpful anyway since a website will usually load various other bits of code that you cannot access in this way, for example on this site you cannot access the PHP database for the forums, you probably can't view the CSS scripts either (although you might be able to download them if you go to the link, depends on the access settings, you probably can't). If you do view the source on this page you will notice that there are no sections with the words from peoples posts... these are loaded from the PHP database, you will also see a list of stylesheets (these are the CSS scripts I mentioned, looks like you can view them) and that is just me having a quick glance at it, there are probably a host of other scripts/codes that are linked to but ultimately the code you see is not very helpful if you want to build a page like this one, to do that you would need to FTP into the websites hosts and look at the PHP database and CSS scripts. You will also notice that it doesn't really matter what part of the page you view source on, you get the same results. 

What's more since most people use programs to build sites these days there is a ton of unnecessary code used. Back in the 90's most sites just used HTML and Java and you could access all the code by right clicking the appropriate part of the window and viewing the source. What's more this was usually created by a person, not a program so you only included the code you needed, since you had to type it all out. Hell, most coders even include comments explaining what various bits of code do. This meant you could see the code behind the site and you could work out what did what, which ultimately allowed you to learn the language. 

These days you need a book or tutorial (website/video) to actually teach you the code. Not that I am against these things, god knows I have enough programming books (some are even from the 90's) but for a kid it is harder, books aren't cheap. I had a job when I was at school (I had a good job that paid pretty well) but even so I wouldn't have spent my hard earned cash on a HTML book or any programming book if I hadn't known it was something I wanted to learn and I knew that because I had played with peoples source code in a text editor and written some of my own sites (most of which never went online... hell I still have most of them on floppy disk) and this made me realise I wanted to know more, what's more I wanted to know how to do it for myself without finding something, someone else made that I thought looked good and then copying it (all be it with some changes).

I doubt I will be replying to this thread again, as usual I find you are just trying to annoy me and start an argument. I wasn't going to reply when I got the email alert but I had a look at your post and the topic and I didn't think there was much to argue about... clearly I was wrong.

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Myrtonos
13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Who says they aren't free? Perhaps these days you might worry about data gathering but that wasn't really a concern in the 90's. Back then you paid for the call, not a monthly subscription fee and when you created an account you got an email address (usually your name or a username of your choosing @ISP.com) and a website address (this would be the same name/username as your email address at the end of your ISP's website for example http://www.ISP.com/username). I don't really know what you mean by it isn't really free, like I said they weren't gathering user data back then, they didn't know it was valuable to do so or what to do with the results.

1

I did say free seems to mean more than just free of charge. For example, on free hosting sites today, web users can just go to the site and log in or sign-up with their subdomain name and password on any computer that is connected to the internet and has a web browser, free hosting is similar.

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

The term dial-up was in use before alternatives were available, I worked at an ISP which was the first ISP in the UK to offer an 0800 dial up service (free number), it was also the first ISP in the UK to offer broadband.

Why bother with that term when dial-up internet was all that was in existence? Before email, not just the internet as a whole but even non-internet email, no one would have used the term snail-mail, there was no other mail.

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Hotmail was launched in 1996 an it got over 12 million users in the first 18 months, I signed up for it in 96 which was while I was at college, it was a great solution to a problem that existed at the time, young people like me were constantly switching dial up providers to get the cheapest/introductory deals, the only constant email address we had was a school/college or employer one and not only did you have to be at school/work to access that it also wasn't a permanent solution since you aren't there forever, also school email addresses were bloody awful back then, mine had something like 3 letters and 12 numbers in it, I'm pretty sure it was randomly generated, it certainly wasn't my student number or my initials and it didn't include my name or anything useful to identify me. What's more it wasn't @college.ac.uk either, it was presumably the colleges institution number issues by the government so it was something like @gower96454.ac.uk so all in my email was something like agj75395185264@gower96454.ac.uk of course there was a student directory that teachers/students could look up but to give it to friends that weren't at my college was a nightmare.

I suppose most of the first users were those who didn't have a constant non-free email address, such as a work or university email, which could only be accessed from work or University, or an I.S.P based email address. Those who, say, had a constant I.S.P based email address, probably would not have bothered with webmail.

Also, that constant switching of service providers seems to have been motivated by competition between providers, and given the problems with changing providers, especially at that time, suggests that competition between service providers might not be so good.

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Bear in mind the college didn't have a website back then, the internet wasn't really mainstream, it was just geeks who who were using it, I had been using it since 93/94 mainly when I visited my dad back then as he had it, it was at least 95 before I convinced my mother to let me do the 1 month intro thing, and even then she wouldn't let me do it all the time... you had to have a credit card to sign up so I couldn't do it without her permission. My school didn't have internet or email at all.

Does that mean that only technically minded people (like geeks) got to send and receive emails? You say your school didn't have internet or email at all, but by that time, email was on the internet. I know there was email before commercial public use of the internet, but do you mean your school didn't even have, say, intranet email?

It seems there was a time when those who had internet only used it for email, they did not have web browsers.

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

People (certainly not young people) didn't tend to worry about things like data gathering back then, hell I'm not sure I even inputted my actual details when I signed up for hotmail, I almost certainly made them up on the spot, iirc hotmail made its money through advertising direct to it's users, this was acceptable in my book as you really were getting something that you couldn't get elsewhere, a permanent email address that you could keep and take with you no matter who your ISP/school/employer was. Plus if I'm honest ads have never really bothered me I just ignore the banner or whatever, this was of course before the days of pop up ads and embedded ads in media... hell this was before the days of consumable media online, it was annoying if someone so much as uploaded a big photo online cause that would take ages to load, they actually updated the protocols to load text before pictures in an attempt to overcome this but you were supposed to upload a thumbnail and then if people wanted to they could click it to get the full sized image.

6

I have never really thought about data gathering. As for uploading photos, was there image compression at that time? I know JPEG did appear in the mid-1990s but what about before then, and also, lossless image compression?

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Now I did buy a domain in the early 2000's and I still have it and use it for email (I actually own 3 domains) but to be honest these days I tend to use gmail for friends and family, this is because I use android and so I have to have a gmail account and while I can and do access all my domain emails from my phone, the fact of the matter is that I get rather a lot of email on those accounts, I've had them a long time and I get a lot of newsletters etc where as I get maybe 4 spam mails a year in gmail and they don't even appear in my inbox, I don't get any newsletters or advertising or even account mails except from Google (and they're pretty rare) so if I have a mail in gmail I know it is either from Google or it's from someone I want to hear from (i.e. a friend/family member).

I know about your gmail, from email conversations with you.

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

The reason I bring up Google is because this is an example of something that isn't truly free, I assume this is what you meant about Hotmail but back then they didn't know what they do now, these days, YOU are the product, your data is valuable, what you think and do is valuable, and Google has access to a shocking amount of information from it's customers, (as does Apple for theirs), as an Android and Chrome user, Google knows most stuff about me, they know where I go, they can probably make a good educated guess at what I do in said places, they know who I contact either by phone/email or even in person, they know what I look up online, they can probably make a good educated guess about what my interests and even my values are.

I have heard about this sort of thing, but there was a time when I did not. Okay, you can create a Google account on anywhere online with your username and password, and also (I believe) another identification factor, such as your phone number. You can also log into to that Google account anywhere online. Sorry, I can't think of anything to say on Facebook or Cambridge Analytica.

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

You know comments like that are why I tend to avoid threads that you post in, even when you try to bring me into them by mentioning me, you are well aware that I know about computers and the internet and have worked in those industries and yet you say something that can only be intended to be condescending and argumentative...

Well, there is a question there, I am asking for clarification. I'm asking because the web is often referred to as "the internet". In spite of what you know about computers and the internet as a whole, I was still unsure about your term usage. 

You said "Obviously for email you would use Hotmail..." but this thread is about GeoCities, which first went online before webmail existed so I thought it was misleading.

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Of course the internet and the web are different things, the web specifically refers to the world wide web ergo websites (which is what you were talking about). Email is not the web for example, nether are online games or chat programs. You need the internet in order to access the web though. No I don't mean there weren't enough people into the web. I mean there weren't enough people into the internet as a whole. It was just geeks. However, you were talking specifically about websites and hosting so of course that is specifically the web (which is of course part of the internet). You should remember that dial up internet was only introduced in the UK in 92. We are not talking about before ISP's were available, when you could dial into a specific server/service, we are talking about after ISP's became a consumer product (which was 92 in the UK). As I said above my first use of an ISP was in 93 or 94. As I also said in my original post most stuff was available for free online at that time, the idea of paying for online services went against the idea of the internet at that time.

Not "of course" because of that common, misleading use of the term "internet". All online games I have ever seen have been on the web, not that I have seen many of them. Apparently, the oldest I.S.Ps were originally just online service providers, offering things like email and instant messaging between clients of the same service. I am not surprised that most things available online were free of charge, internet users had to pay for phone connections and the phone calls to their service providers. Often they could also only connect for a limited amount of time per day. 

No comment on viewing source or HTML or site building programmes but:

13 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

I doubt I will be replying to this thread again, as usual I find you are just trying to annoy me and start an argument. I wasn't going to reply when I got the email alert but I had a look at your post and the topic and I didn't think there was much to argue about... clearly I was wrong.

You often say things like you doubt you will be replying again or that you won't be, not just in threads I started but even in discussions not involving me. I wasn't going to bring you because of that experience but I then thought I would because of how much you know about it and hoping this wouldn't happen.

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3 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

I did say free seems to mean more than just free of charge. For example, on free hosting sites today, web users can just go to the site and log in or sign-up with their subdomain name and password on any computer that is connected to the internet and has a web browser, free hosting is similar.

So how is that not free? Normally when people complain that things aren't really free they mean because of advertising or data harvesting. 

3 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

Why bother with that term when dial-up internet was all that was in existence? Before email, not just the internet as a whole but even non-internet email, no one would have used the term snail-mail, there was no other mail.

Because there were many way of connecting to networks, direct links between computers, or even using a modem to connect to a specific service (this would not be included in the term dial-up that was specifically about dialing into an ISP to connect the the internet).

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

I suppose most of the first users were those who didn't have a constant non-free email address, such as a work or university email, which could only be accessed from work or University, or an I.S.P based email address. Those who, say, had a constant I.S.P based email address, probably would not have bothered with webmail.

Even those who did have school/work ones would have wanted a personal account, courses and jobs don't last forever plus you aren't really supposed to use those accounts for personal reasons (not that most people care these days).

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

Does that mean that only technically minded people (like geeks) got to send and receive emails? You say your school didn't have internet or email at all, but by that time, email was on the internet. I know there was email before commercial public use of the internet, but do you mean your school didn't even have, say, intranet email?

Yes mostly only geeks got to send/receive emails, certainly for personal use. My school didn't have internet in any way shape or form, be that access to the web, email or anything else, it didn't even have an intranet. You have to remember I left school in 96, most people I went to school with didn't even own PC's, as I said the internet was not really a big thing then, it was only really geeks that were into it.

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

Also, that constant switching of service providers seems to have been motivated by competition between providers, and given the problems with changing providers, especially at that time, suggests that competition between service providers might not be so good.

Not really, it was motivated by there being a cheaper introductory offer for the first month, after which it went up, hence switching providers. There were no issues with changing providers, you just called a number and cancelled it, no notice was required, remember this was the days of dial up, you didn't need any special modem/router installed, you just configured your dial-up modem to dial a phone number and you input the username and password, that was it, if you switched providers you changed the info. You weren't tied into a contract so you signed up for the 1 month, cancelled it, switched to a different ISP did the same and after about 3 months you could go back to the first one.

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

It seems there was a time when those who had internet only used it for email, they did not have web browsers.

I suppose some people might have but not most and certainly not home/personal users. In the 90's the most common thing to do online was use chatrooms and forums (as a personal user rather than a business/student user).

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

I have never really thought about data gathering. As for uploading photos, was there image compression at that time? I know JPEG did appear in the mid-1990s but what about before then, and also, lossless image compression?

JPG and GIF were the primary image formats at the time, as I said photo's were annoying as they slowed down the loading of any page, it wasn't unusual for someone to just click back if a large image started to load.

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

I have heard about this sort of thing, but there was a time when I did not. Okay, you can create a Google account on anywhere online with your username and password, and also (I believe) another identification factor, such as your phone number. You can also log into to that Google account anywhere online.

You do not need another identification factor as you call it, you have the option of adding a mobile and/or alternative email address, these are not used for identification purposes though, they are recovery methods if you get locked out of your account, as I said it is optional, you can just create a new account with whatever info you want and not have any recovery options if that is what you want to do.

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

You said "Obviously for email you would use Hotmail..." but this thread is about GeoCities, which first went online before webmail existed so I thought it was misleading.

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, I read your comment where you mentioned me and the title, I briefly scanned the first page of comments and looked at the few before your post mentioning me. I saw email was mentioned. While I can see it is about geocities I wasn't really clear what it was you wanted me to answer. You didn't ask a question, you just said 'perhaps we can being Miss Chief in' so I tried to generally cover what I had seen brought up in the thread, including email, I did say; 'What is it you want to know' and 'Not really sure what you're asking about'.

Perhaps I should have also mentioned this... you don't need an email address to create an account, you just need a username and password, while companies often use our email addresses as a username these days... not all sites/services do this, and to be honest you don't even need to have an email address to have an account, although it is helpful to have a means of contacting your customers of course and it would be unusual to have an online account that doesn't have your email these days, it wasn't unheard of back then though. 

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

Not "of course" because of that common, misleading use of the term "internet". All online games I have ever seen have been on the web, not that I have seen many of them. Apparently, the oldest I.S.Ps were originally just online service providers, offering things like email and instant messaging between clients of the same service. I am not surprised that most things available online were free of charge, internet users had to pay for phone connections and the phone calls to their service providers. Often they could also only connect for a limited amount of time per day. 

Well I can assure you when I say games I don't mean ones in browsers, I mean MMO's/SPS that kind of thing.

4 hours ago, Myrtonos said:

You often say things like you doubt you will be replying again or that you won't be, not just in threads I started but even in discussions not involving me. I wasn't going to bring you because of that experience but I then thought I would because of how much you know about it and hoping this wouldn't happen.

As you keep pointing out... again this comes across as being antagonistic, perhaps if I explain you will stop bring it up... the reason I try to walk away from conversations that seem to be heading towards an argument (or have turned into an argument) is because I want to stop the argument from happening (or progressing).

Since this thread doesn't seem to be heading in that direction at the moment I will remain active for now but I refuse to get dragged into more arguments with you over semantics.

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On 3/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Miss Chief said:

So how is that not free? Normally when people complain that things aren't really free they mean because of advertising or data harvesting. 

Okay, accounts on this very site are free, not just free of charge (except for V.I.P "Asperclicker" members) but they are free in the sense that anyone can create an account on any computer, all they need is an internet connection and a web browser that supports cookies, they can also log in on any computer with an internet connection and a web browser that supports logins.

On 3/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Miss Chief said:
On 3/17/2019 at 4:50 PM, Myrtonos said:

Why bother with that term when dial-up internet was all that was in existence? Before email, not just the internet as a whole but even non-internet email, no one would have used the term snail-mail, there was no other mail.

Because there were many way of connecting to networks, direct links between computers, or even using a modem to connect to a specific service (this would not be included in the term dial-up that was specifically about dialing into an ISP to connect the the internet).

Before commercial public use of the internet, there were dial-up connections to servers called Bulletin Board Systems. But the term I meant wasn't just 'dial-up' but 'dial-up internet', which were originally the only way for a household computer to connect to the internet.

On 3/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Miss Chief said:

Even those who did have school/work ones would have wanted a personal account, courses and jobs don't last forever plus you aren't really supposed to use those accounts for personal reasons (not that most people care these days).

 

I think I stand partly corrected, I suppose the first webmail users did not have a constant non-free personal email address. No further comment on your school nor on changing dial-up service providers.

On 3/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Miss Chief said:

I suppose some people might have but not most and certainly not home/personal users. In the 90's the most common thing to do online was use chatrooms and forums (as a personal user rather than a business/student user).

Certainly, teenagers used it, and the first time I had heard of internet chatting was when I heard some then-teenager was chatting on the internet, but I have known of email for much longer, maybe as long as I have heard of the internet.

On 3/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Miss Chief said:

JPG and GIF were the primary image formats at the time, as I said photo's were annoying as they slowed down the loading of any page, it wasn't unusual for someone to just click back if a large image started to load.

And what about lossless image compression? With JEPG and GIF, the decoded image differs from the original, with any lossless compression, the decompressed file is identical.

On 3/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Miss Chief said:

I have not read this thread in it's entirety, I read your comment where you mentioned me and the title, I briefly scanned the first page of comments and looked at the few before your post mentioning me. I saw email was mentioned. While I can see it is about geocities I wasn't really clear what it was you wanted me to answer. You didn't ask a question, you just said 'perhaps we can being Miss Chief in' so I tried to generally cover what I had seen brought up in the thread, including email, I did say; 'What is it you want to know' and 'Not really sure what you're asking about'.

I did that because of your knowledge about this, yes I was hoping you would look for something to say after reading through posts.

On 3/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Miss Chief said:

Perhaps I should have also mentioned this... you don't need an email address to create an account, you just need a username and password, while companies often use our email addresses as a username these days... not all sites/services do this, and to be honest you don't even need to have an email address to have an account, although it is helpful to have a means of contacting your customers of course and it would be unusual to have an online account that doesn't have your email these days, it wasn't unheard of back then though. 

You do need to specify an email address to create an account here, and it needs to be valid to activate that account.

On 3/17/2019 at 9:23 PM, Miss Chief said:

Well I can assure you when I say games I don't mean ones in browsers, I mean MMO's/SPS that kind of thing.

I have never played any online game that was not in browsers. I am not a big gamer.

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17 minutes ago, Myrtonos said:

Okay, accounts on this very site are free, not just free of charge (except for V.I.P "Asperclicker" members) but they are free in the sense that anyone can create an account on any computer, all they need is an internet connection and a web browser that supports cookies, they can also log in on any computer with an internet connection and a web browser that supports logins.

That isn't what the word free means, free means without restraint or cost, what you are describing is called accessibility. Websites were always accessible from any internet connection and browser, including things like hotmail. 

18 minutes ago, Myrtonos said:

Before commercial public use of the internet, there were dial-up connections to servers called Bulletin Board Systems. But the term I meant wasn't just 'dial-up' but 'dial-up internet', which were originally the only way for a household computer to connect to the internet.

Well I don't think I used the term 'dial-up internet'. I have explained this already. When things get discovered or invented they need a name so that people know how to identify them and discuss them, dial-up was the term used to describe using a modem to connect to the internet via an ISP and phone line. 

26 minutes ago, Myrtonos said:

Certainly, teenagers used it, and the first time I had heard of internet chatting was when I heard some then-teenager was chatting on the internet, but I have known of email for much longer, maybe as long as I have heard of the internet.

 How old do you think I was in the 90's? I was a teenager, and I used chatrooms for years before hotmail came along. As I said browsing mostly homemade hobby/enthusiast websites, while it was pretty amateur there was a lot of awesome stuff around that you can only find on the dark web these days (like electronics manuals or umm chemistry enthusiasts that would definitely bring you to the attention of certain governments departments these days, but anyway websites and chatrooms like irc were pretty much it on the web initially

31 minutes ago, Myrtonos said:

And what about lossless image compression? With JEPG and GIF, the decoded image differs from the original, with any lossless compression, the decompressed file is identical.

You have to understand digital cameras were pretty new as a consumer product at this point and not particularly good, so if you wanted to post one of your photos you had to scan it in. I think I did answer you question, I said it was DEEPLY frowned upon to post large pictures online, the higher the quality of the image the longer it takes to load as the more data that needs to be transferred, it slowed everyone's internet experience down and it wasn't exactly fast to begin with, while with the right hardware and software I'm sure there were lossless formats but no they wouldn't have been supported on the web, pretty sure I mentioned it was just JPG & GIF initially. Things started getting better when they changed the way sites were loaded so text would load before images but still you wouldn't have wanted a large, high quality photo to load.

40 minutes ago, Myrtonos said:

You do need to specify an email address to create an account here, and it needs to be valid to activate that account.

Yes you need to provide an email address here, most places require an email address from you these days, but it isn't an essential part of creating an account, to have an account on any system you need 2 things, a username and a password, that's it, so while your email address is registered as part of your profile on this site, technically your account credentials are your username and password and technically that is ALL you need to create and account, not on this website since it has been configured to require additional details. but in the days before hotmail was a big thing you didn't have to give an email address associate with an account, you filled in a form just like now, you selected a username or accepted the one they gave you and you picked a password, then you remembered these credentials, if you forgot them you would almost certainly lose access and have to create a new account and start over. As email became more accessible and more people were using it, slowly it came to the point where everyone and everything wants you email address, even the bloody corner shop wants it, it's not all bad though, this enabled you to request a password reset link to be sent to the email address associated with the account so as long as you can still access that then you can get back into most accounts. Although things are moving away from that now with SMS verification codes/2 step verification, fingerprint scanners, etc. 

Ultimately most smaller sites (like forums) ask for email addresses these days because it became standard to get it during the registration process and then use it to try and keep bots from generating spam accounts, but that was after... the reason it became standard is large companies, organisations and less scrupulous websites like the idea of having a way of contacting you for free, whenever they want, not to mention that it used to be quite lucrative for businesses to sell these lists of email addresses to spammers. As usual it comes back to greedy companies.

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2 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

That isn't what the word free means, free means without restraint or cost, what you are describing is called accessibility. Websites were always accessible from any internet connection and browser, including things like hotmail. 

Indeed it seems that 'free' is most commonly understood to mean 'free of change'. You may have heard the expression 'free as in speech' which does mean something other than free of charge. I understood work-based email to be non-free because they come with one's occupation and can only be accessed from one's workplace, likewise with University-based email.

3 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Well I don't think I used the term 'dial-up internet'. I have explained this already. When things get discovered or invented they need a name so that people know how to identify them and discuss them, dial-up was the term used to describe using a modem to connect to the internet via an ISP and phone line. 

While it is obvious that things that get discovered or invented need a name, I can't find where you explained that already, what I did explain is that there were the same sort of connections to BBSs even before commercial public use of the internet. Another use of modems, other than a connection over phone lines, was for something called Packet radio.

3 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

 How old do you think I was in the 90's? I was a teenager, and I used chatrooms for years before hotmail came along. As I said browsing mostly homemade hobby/enthusiast websites, while it was pretty amateur there was a lot of awesome stuff around that you can only find on the dark web these days (like electronics manuals or umm chemistry enthusiasts that would definitely bring you to the attention of certain governments departments these days, but anyway websites and chatrooms like irc were pretty much it on the web initially

I know you are in your 30s, but so am I, so it's not hard to forget how old you are, I had to look back at your introduction. Note that my parents were in their 40s at that time and they did send and receive emails, they never used chatrooms.

5 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

You have to understand digital cameras were pretty new as a consumer product at this point and not particularly good, so if you wanted to post one of your photos you had to scan it in. I think I did answer you question, I said it was DEEPLY frowned upon to post large pictures online, the higher the quality of the image the longer it takes to load as the more data that needs to be transferred, it slowed everyone's internet experience down and it wasn't exactly fast to begin with, while with the right hardware and software I'm sure there were lossless formats but no they wouldn't have been supported on the web, pretty sure I mentioned it was just JPG & GIF initially. Things started getting better when they changed the way sites were loaded so text would load before images but still you wouldn't have wanted a large, high quality photo to load.

My question was "what about lossless image compression" and about before the advent of JPEG, I wasn't asking about JPEG or GIF. I know the resolution of an uncompressed image does affect how long it takes to load. But if the image is losslessly compressed, image resolution has much less of an impact. If you understand how (lossless) file compression works, you'll see why.

 
 
 
 
 
4
6 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Yes you need to provide an email address here, most places require an email address from you these days, but it isn't an essential part of creating an account, to have an account on any system you need 2 things, a username and a password, that's it, so while your email address is registered as part of your profile on this site, technically your account credentials are your username and password and technically that is ALL you need to create and account, not on this website since it has been configured to require additional details. but in the days before hotmail was a big thing you didn't have to give an email address associate with an account, you filled in a form just like now, you selected a username or accepted the one they gave you and you picked a password, then you remembered these credentials, if you forgot them you would almost certainly lose access and have to create a new account and start over. As email became more accessible and more people were using it, slowly it came to the point where everyone and everything wants you email address, even the bloody corner shop wants it, it's not all bad though, this enabled you to request a password reset link to be sent to the email address associated with the account so as long as you can still access that then you can get back into most accounts. 

The software that runs this site is Invision Community (see link at the bottom of each page) and I believe that software itself, not just this particular installation, has been configured to require all accounts to have a valid email address specified. On many sites, there is the option of the site remembering you so that you, if you log out, don't have to type the password again to log in again on the same computer, and the option of remaining logged in on the same computer. For logging in on a different computer to the one where the account was created, there is the option of saving the password to removable storage. Also, I have heard of Passwordless Login.

On a related note, I did mention earlier that logins to websites, as far as I know, used to be quite rare. Even now, those commenting on blogs may let others know who they are simply by typing their username in one field and their email address in another.

6 hours ago, Miss Chief said:

Ultimately most smaller sites (like forums) ask for email addresses these days because it became standard to get it during the registration process and then use it to try and keep bots from generating spam accounts, but that was after... the reason it became standard is large companies, organisations and less scrupulous websites like the idea of having a way of contacting you for free, whenever they want, not to mention that it used to be quite lucrative for businesses to sell these lists of email addresses to spammers.

I understand that email-based authentication came about at a time when non-free email addresses (given the definition above) were more common and webmail less common.

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